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Giving away a mare, any way to insure (as best as possible) she is never bred?

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  • Giving away a mare, any way to insure (as best as possible) she is never bred?

    I find myself in an interesting situation with my mare. I have found her a perfect home in a situation where she is sound and can be ridden lightly. She is doing so well that it looks as though the person who has her would like to keep her.

    The quandary is, even though she has good breeding, conformation, movement, temperament, she has known genetic issues that I know for a fact her twin sister has passed on to her offspring.

    If I transfer ownership and registration, is a contract stipulating the mare is not bred or sold legally binding an enforceable really? Is there a way to flag her papers with the AHS that she not be inspected/bred and would alert other registries as well?
    On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

  • #2
    Have her spayed (ovarectomized-did I spell this right) prior to letting her leave the property.
    Véronique
    www.FormosusSporthorses.ca
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    • #3
      Originally posted by Perfect Pony View Post
      If I transfer ownership and registration, is a contract stipulating the mare is not bred or sold legally binding an enforceable really?
      no not really.

      Tamara
      Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
      I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

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      • Original Poster

        #4
        Originally posted by Formosus View Post
        Have her spayed (ovarectomized-did I spell this right) prior to letting her leave the property.
        She is already on lease at the other property and has been for 6 months. I spoke with UC Davis a while ago about having her spayed, it's quite expensive and a major surgery, so not really an option. They didn't really recommend it.
        On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

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        • #5
          There is no way to prevent her from being bred by future owners, but a big deterrent would be to NOT transfer her papers to the new owners.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by SillyMe View Post
            There is no way to prevent her from being bred by future owners, but a big deterrent would be to NOT transfer her papers to the new owners.

            Actually, I would either do this OR just keep the papers in your name. Trust me, I've done this sort of stuff several times, and I learned to NEVER actually relinquish legal ownership of the horse.

            It's the only protection you (and the horse) have.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
              Actually, I would either do this OR just keep the papers in your name. Trust me, I've done this sort of stuff several times, and I learned to NEVER actually relinquish legal ownership of the horse.

              It's the only protection you (and the horse) have.

              If these people are the type who would breed an unsuitable mare then I wouldn't give them ownership at all. They would probably breed her w/o papers anyways, or just send her on to someone else when they were done with her.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by candyappy View Post
                If these people are the type who would breed an unsuitable mare then I wouldn't give them ownership at all. They would probably breed her w/o papers anyways, or just send her on to someone else when they were done with her.
                It doesn't matter who the people are; we are assuming the people already know the mare shouldn't be bred.

                But when the OP gives her away WITH papers, there is absolutely ZERO she can do if they decide to sell the mare ('oooh, LOOK! I have WB mare! Bet I could sell her for $$!!!') and she keeps going down the road.

                Keeping her in your name is the only thing that can prevent this; that AND having a signed contract that spells out you are NOT giving the horse away; instead, she is on a long-term lease with certain conditions.

                As I said, I've been through this several times (and I have to say, only one time ended well) and thank goodness I had those papers, 'cause I've had to "repo" horses back from several of these people when food apparently became optional in these wonderful "forever" homes....

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                • #9
                  I spoke with UC Davis a while ago about having her spayed, it's quite expensive and a major surgery, so not really an option. They didn't really recommend it.
                  Perhaps they just don't like doing it. Find someone else! I just called my repro clinic and they said it would be $500 - $800 including surgery, drugs and board. They procedure is done either through flank incision or vaginally and there is a very short recovery period.

                  This is a procedure that is done routinely for jump mares and I have no idea why they would recommend against it.
                  Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
                  Now apparently completely invisible!

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                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Tiki View Post
                    Perhaps they just don't like doing it. Find someone else! I just called my repro clinic and they said it would be $500 - $800 including surgery, drugs and board. They procedure is done either through flank incision or vaginally and there is a very short recovery period.

                    This is a procedure that is done routinely for jump mares and I have no idea why they would recommend against it.
                    Tiki, it was more against doing it with my mare. She had significant complications with both the anesthesia and the surgical procedure when she had her stifle surgery. Lot's of one-off "unforeseen" complications when her immune system didn't deal well with things (unexplained swelling, and reactions to incisions, sutures, etc). At the time we did not realize she has neurological issues and probably EDM. After all that we shy away from doing any sort of procedures, but I will certainly look into it more fully if it's really that simple of a procedure.

                    As far as the home, I could not have dreamed up a better situation for her. She is with a trainer that owns her own gorgeous facility, is there full time, and treats her like a queen. My friend rides with the trainer and visits her often. The deal was that if things worked out she could have her, she certainly provides a better home for her than I could given where I live. I am just looking into my options as S-happens (divorce, death, you name it) and my mare is only 9 years old. I guess the next step is to contact the AHS.
                    On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

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                    • #11
                      PP, call Hugh. You can either turn in her papers, or retain them and he'll make a note in the mare's file.

                      I did it with a filly that I gave away that I felt was nowhere near quality enough to be bred.

                      I can also send you a copy of the bill of sale I drew up with the person I gave her to, that included language about not being bred. Not that the BOS is very enforceable, but it did drive home the point.
                      "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

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                      • #12
                        A marble might work;

                        http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/bms/e...bles_apr09.pdf

                        Having notations on papers is no guarantee that the mare will remain unbred.
                        ... _. ._ .._. .._

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                        • #13
                          Having notations on papers is no guarantee that the mare will remain unbred.
                          Of course it isn't. But it will keep the mare out of the mainstream registries.

                          Is doing nothing a better idea because outside of an ovarectomy there is no foolproof way?
                          "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

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                          • #14
                            PP, the procedure my guys use is standing in the stocks with sedation and a local anesthetic, which would not give the 'anesthetic reaction' that UCD talks about that she would get with general anesthesia. It sounds like the procedure they want to use is to anesthetize her and lay her out on a table they way they would do colic surgery. Check around. It shouldn't be that big of a deal and should not cause so many problems. The stifle area has a lot of soft tissue and muscle, the flank is a very different area and my not react the same way. I do understand what you're saying, but ask some more questions. They also told me that the procedure is much easier transvaginally, being easier to reach the 2 ovaries that way and may not even require sutures.
                            Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
                            Now apparently completely invisible!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Tiki View Post
                              PP, the procedure my guys use is standing in the stocks with sedation and a local anesthetic, ....told me that the procedure is much easier transvaginally, being easier to reach the 2 ovaries that way and may not even require sutures.
                              I saw multiple OVX procedures in graduate school at CSU, all were done as Tiki suggests above. Mild sedation and local anesthetic in stocks, done transvaginally. The device they use to cut out the ovaries transvaginally is a bit archaic looking, but it does the job and took very minor incisions in the vaginal wall. I agree that PP, you should ask around because UCD response is somewhat different from what I know of at CSU.
                              Kris
                              www.edgewoodmeadowfarm.com
                              Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/edgewoodmeadowfarm

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                              • #16
                                PP, there are three different types of ovarectomies that can be done. There are three basic methods to remove ovaries from a mare. The least cheapest but riskiest is a colpotomy. With a colpotomy, the mare is sedated and an epidural is administered. An incision is made blindly in the mare's vagina and an instrument is passed through the vaginal incision and the ovary is removed through the vagina. Alternative surgical approaches are performed through the mare's flank or abdomen. The second method is removal of the ovary via a flank incision. Again, the mare is sedated and an epidural is administered. The ovary is located, and removed. This method is less risky, but is more expensive. The most precise, and most expensive method to remove the ovaries is through an abdominal incision. An abdominal incision, however, carries the risks of general anesthesia and a major incision on the horse's abdomen. It is by far the most expensive.

                                Edited to add that there is now another procedure done laproscopically through a flank incision that has the benefits of the flank removal without some of the previous risks where the ovary is actually visualized and excised...less invasive. But, I suspect, probably not as widely used due to lack of equipment or training.

                                We have had mares ovarectomized by colpotomy and it went very well, with minimal discomfort or problems. We had it performed through Oklahoma State University and the total cost was around $600. Look for an equine vet that specializes in reproduction. It's not a complicated procedure, but you do want to find someone that has done more than one or two .

                                Removal of the ovaries is going to be about the ONLY way you will be able to insure that the mare will not be bred, unfortunately! Good luck!
                                Last edited by Equine Reproduction; Jul. 8, 2011, 09:32 AM.
                                Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
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                                • #17
                                  I know of a mare that had the 2nd flank incision surgery the ER talks about.
                                  The owners insurance company covered the costs, perhaps check with yours?

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
                                    Keeping her in your name is the only thing that can prevent this; that AND having a signed contract that spells out you are NOT giving the horse away; instead, she is on a long-term lease with certain conditions.

                                    As I said, I've been through this several times (and I have to say, only one time ended well) and thank goodness I had those papers, 'cause I've had to "repo" horses back from several of these people when food apparently became optional in these wonderful "forever" homes....
                                    What Kyzteke said. Why transfer papers in the first place? If the horse is happy, the trainer keeping the horse is happy, and you're happy, just keep things how they are. I know it's tempting when things are working out so well to just give the horse to such a great home (btdt) but after you rescue (thanks to a lease contract) a horse or two from such wonderful (long-term or permanent) homes, you become glad you did not give up ownership in the first place. Many times it works out, sometimes it does not. Do a long-term lease whereby you renew the lease yearly should you wish and you retain ultimate control. Should you have to take her back at any point, or the trainer returns her to you, you can find another like situation for her. That way you are relieved of any financial burden (for the most part) but can also ensure her best interests are served.
                                    ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
                                    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

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                                    • #19
                                      HAH!! Had that blow up on me. I retained ownership, horse got transferred several times, wound up in a rescue that I didn't know about and finally contacted by new owner who bought him from the rescue and tracked him down to me through the SO. Signed paper and all that which weren't worth the cost of a match to burn them - or whatever happened to the contract.
                                      Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
                                      Now apparently completely invisible!

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