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Accumulators

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  • Accumulators

    Could I call on the collective wisdom here to advise me regarding stallions that are accumulators? Is there any way to improve their fertility? New techniques? Tell me something hopeful please!
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Jumphigh83 View Post
    Could I call on the collective wisdom here to advise me regarding stallions that are accumulators? Is there any way to improve their fertility? New techniques? Tell me something hopeful please!
    No new methods or techniques that I'm aware of. Just collecting them to clean them out. Not always easy and can be incredibly time consuming. You "can" give a dose of oxytocin right before going to the breeding mount which will sometiems have a positive influence. It can be incredibly frustrating though. I feel your pain!

    Good luck!
    Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
    Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

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    • Original Poster

      #3
      Can I ask how the oxytocin helps? I have heard about using it to "tame" down rude stallions but don't know about how this works to help the accumulator situation? Thanks in advance!
      Last edited by Jumphigh83; Jun. 17, 2011, 08:22 AM. Reason: spelling...ugh!
      The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Jumphigh83 View Post
        Can I ask how the oxytocin helps?
        It causes contractions of the smooth muscle, which may assist in clearing the blockage and accumulation.

        One can also use cloprostenol ("Estrumate") - 50 µg, IM - prior to collection (oxytocin should be 10-20 IU given immediately prior to the collection attempt) (Ball BA. 2011 Proc. Rossdale's Stallion Subfertility. 100).

        I have heard about using it to "tame" down rude stallions but don't know about how this works to help the accumulator situation?
        As it causes contractions of the smooth muscle and is not a tranquilizer, I fail to see how oxytocin could have a taming effect with an unruly stallion.

        Accumulator stallions (correct term "spermiostasis") may also benefit from trans-rectal massage of the ampullae prior to the collection attempt, which can also assist in breaking down and freeing any plugs.

        Regards to all,
        Last edited by Jos; Jun. 17, 2011, 03:25 PM. Reason: Added afterthought
        Jos Mottershead
        Equine-Reproduction.com LLC
        EquineRepro Informational Group

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        • Original Poster

          #5
          I too fail to understand the physiology but I have actually seen it work. Makes a rude stallion an effective gelding in minutes IM...lasts a few hours....
          The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            PS and I know it isnt a TQ. It doesnt make them quiet it just takes away the screaming, rearing and other libidinous behavior pdq.
            The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jumphigh83 View Post
              I too fail to understand the physiology but I have actually seen it work. Makes a rude stallion an effective gelding in minutes IM...lasts a few hours....
              PS and I know it isnt a TQ. It doesnt make them quiet it just takes away the screaming, rearing and other libidinous behavior pdq.
              I have to say that we've used oxytocin on many stallions that did have spermiostasis (accumulators) and I can honestly say we have never, ever seen any difference behaviorally when it was used. And yes, it has been given both IM and IV, so it's not the method of delivery. I'm puzzled as to what exactly was going on physiologically to have accomplished the response you are saying you witnessed. The only other thing I can think of is that the dosage used was considerably higher and literally just caused the poor dudes to "cramp up". I don't think I would be comfortable using a dose much higher than the 10 to 20 IU Jos stated in his post, but perhaps there is other research out there that you are familiar with that we just haven't read?
              Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
              Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Jumphigh83 View Post
                I too fail to understand the physiology but I have actually seen it work. Makes a rude stallion an effective gelding in minutes IM...
                I've used it on dozens of stallions that were accumulators and in other circumstances and have never seen that effect.

                lasts a few hours....
                As the half-life of oxytocin in the equine is only 6.8 minutes, this too makes me wonder.

                I'm not casting a personal aspersion - I just have my doubts about the scientific validity of it. Sort of like people that claim that their mare can only stay pregnant with Regumate, and in fact it often turns out that the pregnancy maintenance has nothing to do with the Regumate at all...!!!
                Jos Mottershead
                Equine-Reproduction.com LLC
                EquineRepro Informational Group

                Comment


                • #9
                  Now I'm curious -- what is an "accumulator" and can you give a layman's description or explanation?
                  TIA
                  PennyG

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TKR View Post
                    Now I'm curious -- what is an "accumulator" and can you give a layman's description or explanation?
                    TIA
                    PennyG
                    Stallions normally clear dead and old sperm through their urine. But, some stallions don't or can't. So when they are collected the ejaculate will be incredibly concentrated, but pretty much all dead. Or, in really severe cases, no sperm at all until you manage to break free the blockage. Older stallions tend to be more prone to it than younger stallions and we've also found certain "lines" will be more prone to it as well.
                    Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
                    Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

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                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      I first learned of doing this from QH people. I asked many vet friends why this might work and fully none could explain it. I used it on a show horse (not used as a breeding stallion)warm blood who was RUDE at the ring screaming, rearing, acting out and with 5 cc's IM the change in his behavior was no less than remarkable. (they probably should have been geldings but that is another subject altogether!!) It worked miraculously on more than one occasion.
                      Getting back on topic, should I gather that the reproductive future of an accumulator would be dismal, even with "filtering" for frozen? Sigh...
                      The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jumphigh83 View Post
                        ...RUDE at the ring screaming, rearing, acting out and with 5 cc's IM the change in his behavior was no less than remarkable.
                        At 5 cc dosage, it was probably causing colic-like contractions and that's what was taking his mind off everything else!

                        should I gather that the reproductive future of an accumulator would be dismal
                        It will depend upon how severe the problem is. If a normal looking ejaculate can be achieved following multiple collections, then he can probably be managed successfully.

                        A fairly high percentage of stallions suffer from spermiostasis - we estimate around 10% of the stallions we handle, while Dickson Varner estimates as high as 25% (although one must remember he will tend to see a higher percentage of problem animals, which probably accounts for his higher figure).

                        even with "filtering" for frozen?
                        You cannot easily filter it to clean out the dead sperm. All of the current graduated centrifugation methods will not separate the dead sperm with this particular problem. Glass-wool/Sephadex/swim-up techniques may work, but the resulting sample will be small and is technically more difficult to obtain.
                        Jos Mottershead
                        Equine-Reproduction.com LLC
                        EquineRepro Informational Group

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          If he was colicy then he was able to perform very well in his "compromised" state. In fact, better than without the distractions of his libido. Thank you for the input re accumulators.
                          The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            More information on the neuropeptide ....
                            Oxytocin is a hormone that helps relax and reduce blood pressure and cortisol levels. Oxytocin increases pain thresholds, has anti anxiety effects, and stimulates various types of positive social interaction. In addition, it promotes growth and healing.

                            The nonapeptide oxytocin, originally known to stimulate labor and milk ejection, appears to play an important role stress and pain. Oxytocin can induce anti-stress-like effects such as reduction of blood pressure and cortisol levels. It increases pain thresholds, exerts an anxiolytic-like effect and stimulates various types of positive social interaction. In addition, it promotes growth and healing. Repeated exposure to oxytocin causes long-lasting effects by influencing the activity of other transmitter systems, a pattern which makes oxytocin potentially clinically relevant. Oxytocin can be released by various types of non-noxious sensory stimulation, for example by touch and warmth. Ingestion of food triggers oxytocin release by activation of vagal afferents. Most likely, oxytocin can also be released by stimulation of other senses such as olfaction, as well as by certain types of sound and light. In addition, purely psychological mechanisms may trigger the release of oxytocin. This means that positive interaction involving touch and psychological support may be health-promoting. The social interaction of daily life, as well as a positive environment, continuously activate this system. In addition, various types of psychotherapy involving transfer of support, warmth and empathy are likely to induce similar effects, which thus contribute to the positive effects of these kinds of therapies.
                            The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              And I have also had mares that in fact have "stayed pregnant" on progesterone. Without it, they lose the pregnancy. I am not sure what all the vitriol is about. I simply presented an anecdote regarding an experience with a drug and got multiple lectures on how that is "impossible" or "not seen"...I guess that is why medicine is called a "practice".
                              The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Jumphigh83 View Post
                                I am not sure what all the vitriol is about.
                                There is no vitriol. As I commented earlier in this thread, I was not casting personal aspersions. It is however important to consider that there are a variety of people that are reading this thread, and if a less-educated person happens to read that oxytocin can have a positive effect on stallion attitude, and proceeds to dose 5 ml, then they also need to be aware that one possible effect of that dose is colic-like symptoms.

                                FWIW, oxytocin overdose in the mare has also been seen to cause uterine rupture. A 5 ml (100 IU) dose would normally be given in a slow drip rather than a bolus.

                                WRT to your cited article - this is an article that is specifically referring to effects seen in the human, not the equine. It can be risky business trying to extrapolate such material between species - for example that same article also observes that oxytocin is a potent stimulator of spontaneous erection in rats. That is not however the case in the equine or your stallion would have gone from being rude to obscene!

                                It is unfortunate that you have misinterpreted my desire to ensure that a broad spectrum of accurate species-specific information was presented. It is one of the problems I see frequently on the CoTH board and is a contributory factor as to why I do not generally post here - there seems to be a high degree of sensitivity, which is a pity. I have merely been assisting with posting here while Kathy has been recuperating, but she is getting better, I am glad to say.

                                Good luck with your spermiostasic stallion.
                                Jos Mottershead
                                Equine-Reproduction.com LLC
                                EquineRepro Informational Group

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Jumphigh83 View Post
                                  And I have also had mares that in fact have "stayed pregnant" on progesterone. Without it, they lose the pregnancy.
                                  Huh? I must be missing something here. I "thought" the discussion was about accumulators.

                                  I am not sure what all the vitriol is about. I simply presented an anecdote regarding an experience with a drug and got multiple lectures on how that is "impossible" or "not seen"...I guess that is why medicine is called a "practice".
                                  Errr...the only vitriolic responses I've seen have been your insistence that what you have been doing is working with regards to oxytocin use. I speculated that the only way I could see oxytocin having an impact was if a high dose was used and caused sufficient discomfort to "refocus" attention. 5 cc's (100 IU's) would be sufficient, if given to a mare, to quite possibly end up holding the mare's uterus in your hands. No vitriol or even emotion on my part. Re-read my post. I quite purposely post with absolutely no emotion for a reason.

                                  FWIW, many Quarter Horse "trainers" use Regumate on all the stallions under their care and insist that it doesn't have a negative impact on reproduction, either. Research now indicates that it does. Personally, I prefer re-evaulating training methods if a stallion is incapable of standing quietly and behaving himself without the use of chemical manipulation. But, we're off topic now .

                                  Good luck with your boy!
                                  Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
                                  Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

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