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Appy color question

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  • Appy color question

    My baby is a solid mousy brown, not a white hair on her, hahaha!! So she is going to turn black for sure. Okay, a blanket would have been nice, but solid black is pretty cool too! The breeder said she may shed out to some spots, but I'm not holding my breath. And where did those legs come from?? Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has experience with appy shedding, how often do they shed out to spots?? The last one had solid ears and a little on her neck that eventually shed out, she was a full leopard from birth pretty much. Never seen a whole blanket showing up or anything like that, so I ask the experts. Vids of the tyke are below.
    Sarina

  • #2
    Yours would not be the first to get more and more spotted as he gets older
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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    • #3
      Best chance would be a snowflake pattern. My stud sired a black filly who shed out with the most gorgeous snowflake pattern ever. The owners of the mare kept insisting she was grey with no pattern . Regardless of whether she sheds out with color or not, she is very cute!
      Lapeer ... a small drinking town with a farming problem.
      Proud Closet Canterer!

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      • #4
        I have a bay based varnish roan mare and she was born solid bay w/ a star and one little sock. She roaned out as a 2yo and hasn't changed in the six years I've owned her. Her '06 son was born bay w/ a blanket and this winter he started roaning, as well. Really anxious to see if the roan stays after he sheds all of his winter fluff, but it sure looks it. The blanket is still very obvious so he'll hopefully keep that.

        Regardless of color, she's a cutie. I had a black bay N/C stallion that never got any characteristics, but he was still a neat and good looking horse. I had him from a weaner until 4 (didn't die, was gelded and sold.)
        A Merrick N Dream Farm
        Proud Member of "Someone Special to me serves in the Military" Clique

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        • #5
          My first horse was a black appy, although he did have a nice blanket. Years later he roaned out to a leopard app ! Big black spots everywhere !
          Dr. Baird's law:
          In a voluntary organization, the amount of criticism one receives is directly proportional to the amount of work done and it emanates from those who do the very least.

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          • #6
            I had one born mousy brown that was almost totally white by the time he was a 5 year old, with about a dozen quarter sized spots on his rump.

            The one we have now was born black with white on his rump, he is now a roan with black and white spots on his rump.
            Save lives! Adopt a pet from your local shelter.

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            • #7
              My filly was born on 4/21/08 and she is a solid bay with only a white spot the size of a pencil eraser on her head! She is absolutely beautiful though. My mare is a bay/white tobiano so we were hoping for some color like you were!
              ~ Scarborough Fair Farm ~

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              • #8
                I have seen many that started out a solid dark color, and ended up totally leopard on a grey/roan base...

                over different lengths of time.. and changing annually...
                "It's not how good you ride, It's how good your horse covers for you." -Kristan
                Magic Rose Farm- home of Beste Gold & Hot Shot
                Beste Gold & Offspring on Facebook
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                • #9
                  My Appy gelding was born a bay with a blanket. By the time he was 5, he was a varnish roan leopard. With Apps, you never know what color they'll turn out to be --- heck, my Appy mare changes colors to suit her mood, I swear! There are some that hold on to their color, but most will change. A solid baby is nothing to fret about --- another year or two from now, he may look totally different.

                  Donk

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                  • #10
                    That's a very cute filly. Congratulations!

                    Does your filly have any of the Appaloosa characteristics (striped hooves, white sclera around the eye, mottling)? The easiest characteristics to see at this age are the white sclera around the eye and mottling on the muzzle, teats/udder, and/or ano-genital region. If your filly does not have any characteristics then it is highly unlikely that she will develop color. Usually people who had horses that developed color but didn't think the horses had characteristics find that the horse does have some characteristics but you have to look really hard to find them, like mottling hidden between the teats.

                    From looking at the sire and the dam I see that the sire is heterozygous for the LP gene (he is a leopard) so he is LP/lp and the dam appears to be non-characteristic so she doesn't have anything to contribute there so she is lp/lp. This gene is what allows color to be expressed so long as the color gene (PATN) is present. If LP is present without PATN you have a horse that has appaloosa characteristics but no real spotted pattern. I haven't looked at the pedigree of the sire or the dam to see what their parents coloring was. The dam could very well be carrying at least one PATN but you wouldn't know because she is missing the LP so it would be hidden.

                    Your filly could be carrying PATN from the sire and/or PATN from the dam if she is hiding one. Assuming that the sire only has one PATN and that the dam has no PATN then your chances for the filly's color were 50% that she would get LP and 50% that she would get PATN but only 25% that she would get LP and PATN. There is also a 25% chance she got the PATN but not the LP so any appaloosa color she carried would be hidden.

                    Now there is another thing to add to the equation. The filly is black and blacks suppress appaloosa coloring more than any other color. If given the exact same color genes but a different base coat a chestnut foal would have the most color, then the bay a little less and the black even less than the bay.

                    I had a black/brown filly born in 2007 by the Trakehner stallion Tanzeln and a homozygous appalooosa dam (few spot). She has all the characteristics but no real spotted pattern at birth. I did a double-take when that one came out. Apparently the dam is homozygous for LP/LP but not for PATN. The filly did have some white hairs pretty evenly through her coat when she was born. She is almost finished shedding out her winter coat now and yesterday I noticed that she seems to have small clumps of white hairs over her hips. I love a nice snowflake roan and am keeping my fingers crossed that is what she is developing. Regardless, she is a very nice and athletic filly so I can't be disappointed that she isn't smashingly loud.

                    There is a great educational and interactive website regarding the genetics of the spotted breeds - Appaloosas, Knabstruppers, POAs, etc. You should check it out. www.appaloosaproject.info I think it can help spotted horse and pony breeders make better decisions where color is concerned if they want to ensure that they produce colored horses.
                    Altamont Sport Horses
                    Trakehners * Knabstruppers * Appaloosa Sport Horses
                    Home of stallions: Ambrosius af Asgard "Atlantis" & Hollywood Hot Spot
                    Birmingham, AL

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                    • #11
                      That is a wealth of knowledge you have there and I would love to know more about this "appy coloring" concept like you? i am such a fan of the Appaloosa that it is driving me crazy not to own one now. I am however looking and I do have my eye on one. He is actually non colored...
                      "YOU create your own stage. The audience is waiting."

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                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Mom is from two loud leopards, and has no characteristics at all. Well, I think she has a little mottling on her nose, she does have some small spots, but everyone says it's not really, so I gave up. She actually does look like she has dark spots on her summer coat, like a black on black kind of thing, but who knows. She's a fader and looks like a dark bay, that's why the spots kind of stick out, looks like water dripped on her. But whether they are real spots I don't know.

                        Baby doesn't appear to have mottling, and i can't tell if she has sclera or if she's just wide-eyed at the world, hahaha.. she probably doesn't have it. I don't see it when she's just resting, but I"ll try and keep an eye out and take a good look.

                        Weird thing on the baby is that the bottom of her legs are lighter than the top, and I would have thought the bottom would be darker. Her muzzle is light as well as her tummy. But that's probably more baby fuzz and coloring than anything else.

                        She's an appy all right, just like her mother... hahaha...

                        Sarina

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                        • #13
                          Forgot to mention in my first post. My mare's '04 gelding was born solid black bay w/ not a lick of white or chacteristics. I sold him prior to being weaned and he's been w/ his new owners since he was weaned. Now, as a 4yo, he's still solid black bay w/ no signs of changing anytime soon. I believe he's N/C to stay. The '06 colt I mentioned w/ the blanket and roaning is his full brother... so he was quite a nice surprise. Same base color, but w/ a lot more white!! Took the shedding blade to him yesterday afternoon and he's got these snowflake looking spots in various places all over his body... face, neck and sides. He also has a couple little brown/almost tannish cream spots, quite large, near his blanketed hip. I'm not sure what he's doing pattern wise.

                          Apps are fun!!
                          A Merrick N Dream Farm
                          Proud Member of "Someone Special to me serves in the Military" Clique

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                          • #14
                            The lighter legs is from the amniotic fluid. Foals with black points end up with 'fawn' points until they shed their baby coat. Many black foals go through a series of colour changes and may be everything from grulla looking to dark bay to pumpkin bay to 'fawn' all over. You really have to go by what colour they were when they were wet, or wait until... oh... 2 or 3 years old...
                            InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                            Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

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                            • #15
                              Appy's and their spots

                              I bred a non-spot claybank dun appy to a bright Chestnut wb stallion and just knew I would get a solid, red dun or chestnut. Nope - got a yellow-red Dun with a white blanket. Now that he is turning two, he is getting small white spots on his neck - I think Appy's like to hide their spots! Can't wait to see him as a 5 yo.

                              Doubt yours will get a blanket, but don't be surprised when her spots start popping out.

                              It's very interesting to watch!

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Asmac View Post
                                I bred a non-spot claybank dun appy to a bright Chestnut wb stallion and just knew I would get a solid, red dun or chestnut. Nope - got a yellow-red Dun with a white blanket.
                                What kind of warmblood was it? Something isnt right there.
                                Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                                http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

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                                • #17
                                  Can you put your mare and the stallion on the all breed pedigree site? Its not that unusual for leopard to leopard to leopard breeding to produce a NC foal. If there is no roaning in the blood lines Then I doubt she will develop any. You might have better luck with a blanket or of course a few spot.

                                  Anyway she is cute as a button. Any pictures. Dial up and vids dont go together.

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                                  • #18
                                    I had a black colt born out of a snowflake chestnut X black blanketed w/spots stud. His yrling stage he was black w/silver streaked mane/tail. His 2yr stage was black, silver mane/tail and a splotchy hip blanket. His color was very striking. He had few spots in the blanket at 3 when I sold him.

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Proud To Be Spotted View Post
                                      Can you put your mare and the stallion on the all breed pedigree site? Its not that unusual for leopard to leopard to leopard breeding to produce a NC foal.
                                      Yes, I have a mare that is out of two leopards and she is homozygous (few spot). She had a full brother that was completely solid and remained so. Of course leopards are heterozygous and can only throw their LP half the time. The chance of a non-colored and non-characteristic foal out of two leopards is 25%.
                                      Altamont Sport Horses
                                      Trakehners * Knabstruppers * Appaloosa Sport Horses
                                      Home of stallions: Ambrosius af Asgard "Atlantis" & Hollywood Hot Spot
                                      Birmingham, AL

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