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Asking for opinions.. What "makes" an upper level jumper?

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  • Asking for opinions.. What "makes" an upper level jumper?

    Since I'm looking for opinions, I'd figured I'd ask on here... COTH: one topic, two people, three opinions. lol.

    Anyways, I've been asking around out of curiosity. What, in your opinion, makes a youngin' have potential as an upper level jumper? What typical (or just funny, always up for hearing a good "quirky horse" story ) temperment, behaviors have you seen in young horses who went on to have upper level careers? What kind of mind do you think they should have? What about their jumping--conservative efforts over low jumps, or do you want them rocketing out of the stratosphere?

    Just looking for opinions here. I've got a youngster who, IMO, has the potential for upper level jumpers, but I just wanted to hear what others' opinions are on what it takes to make a UL jumper.

    *sidenote* NO, I do not want critiques of my horse or opinions on my horse. I just want to know what ya'll think tends to mark a horse as being an upper level prospect, in ideal situations (good trainer, good rider, etc). I know all the what-ifs and everything, I just want opinions. That's not hard, right?
    Trying a life outside of FEI tents and hotel rooms.

  • #2
    Thoroughbred! no warmblood! haha
    First thing i look for is play in the pasture, who rears the highest and biggest buck?
    Also who fears nothing?!? (not who is disrespectful to humans)
    Then are you talented enough to take it into the jump field or jump arena. Turn those huge bucks and rears into huge scopey jumps!!!

    Good luck

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      If that's it then I think I have the prospect of the century, haha. He's straight TB, athleticism plus, scopey, and sport horse lines deluxe
      Trying a life outside of FEI tents and hotel rooms.

      Comment


      • #4
        In a word, SCOPE

        Comment


        • #5
          Nice! good luck! ill be searching for you in the rolex prix's

          Comment


          • #6
            "It doesn't come down to income. It comes down to putting on your big girl panties, working with what you've got, and being tougher than the challenges that face you." Double Thumbs Up... Let the idiots spend the Big $$ and let us beat them!

            Comment


            • #7
              There are too many factors that have to actually be tested to make an accurate and certain statement that a young horse will make it as a top level jumper. Generally you have to go through the progression from level to level and see what each step up tells you about your horse. Obviously you have to consider the scope and get a feel for what's left as the jumps go up, but a lot of horses top out at a lower level or flunk out entirely due to lack of rideability, carefulness, or soundness. Even degrees thereof. You can recognize lack of carefulness right away, but you won't know your horse is a four faulter past 1.35 until you actually try it a few times. Or you may find that the horse that was careful from the beginning is actually *too* careful, and cannot hold his confidence because he doesn't adjust his effort as the fences go up. As the courses get more technical it might become apparent that its not adjustable enough, or fast enough. Or it may have a water problem. That's why young jumpers are a hard sell in comparison to young hunters, there's just so much left to prove to determine how much quality the horse actually has.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by Ski'sthelimit View Post
                "It doesn't come down to income. It comes down to putting on your big girl panties, working with what you've got, and being tougher than the challenges that face you." Double Thumbs Up... Let the idiots spend the Big $$ and let us beat them!
                Haha, thanks this was what I said in reply to someone on the forum griping over the fact that "rich" young riders have it easier than young riders with less income, something I find somewhat insulting. I've beaten expensive horses and rich riders on cheapo's, money doesn't equal talent. And the other thing: just because some riders are blessed with large bank accounts, doesn't mean they should be hated or thought of as talentless. They too are making the best of what they're given, and they work hard too!
                Trying a life outside of FEI tents and hotel rooms.

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
                  There are too many factors that have to actually be tested to make an accurate and certain statement that a young horse will make it as a top level jumper. Generally you have to go through the progression from level to level and see what each step up tells you about your horse. Obviously you have to consider the scope and get a feel for what's left as the jumps go up, but a lot of horses top out at a lower level or flunk out entirely due to lack of rideability, carefulness, or soundness. Even degrees thereof. You can recognize lack of carefulness right away, but you won't know your horse is a four faulter past 1.35 until you actually try it a few times. Or you may find that the horse that was careful from the beginning is actually *too* careful, and cannot hold his confidence because he doesn't adjust his effort as the fences go up. As the courses get more technical it might become apparent that its not adjustable enough, or fast enough. Or it may have a water problem. That's why young jumpers are a hard sell in comparison to young hunters, there's just so much left to prove to determine how much quality the horse actually has.
                  SO true. I've seen lots of brilliant prospects "fall flat" ability-wise when the jumps went up.
                  Trying a life outside of FEI tents and hotel rooms.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    scope... and not just to jump your 5' field fence. but to jump it with a back rail when set 5'6 wide also. that's a whole different scope than the type bandied around so frequently about the horse who manages to get out of the pasture.

                    carefulness... gotta leave the dead wood up, even if you jump to the moon.

                    temperament for training / rideability... here is where more of the tb's don't get to the higher levels today. there's not much they can't jump 'in the raw', but the sport now demands what it didn't used to in terms of immediate and significant adjustments to stride length (lengthening or shortenting), still maintaining the same vertical and width scope, and carefulness.
                    Hidden Pearl Farm

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ne1 View Post
                      scope... and not just to jump your 5' field fence. but to jump it with a back rail when set 5'6 wide also. that's a whole different scope than the type bandied around so frequently about the horse who manages to get out of the pasture.

                      carefulness... gotta leave the dead wood up, even if you jump to the moon.

                      temperament for training / rideability... here is where more of the tb's don't get to the higher levels today. there's not much they can't jump 'in the raw', but the sport now demands what it didn't used to in terms of immediate and significant adjustments to stride length (lengthening or shortenting), still maintaining the same vertical and width scope, and carefulness.
                      This, a lot of which cannot be tested until later in their young lives.
                      Ryu Equestrian & Facebook Page
                      Breeding Horses Today, for the Equestrian Sport of Tomorrow.
                      Osteen & Gainesville, Florida.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
                        There are too many factors that have to actually be tested to make an accurate and certain statement that a young horse will make it as a top level jumper. Generally you have to go through the progression from level to level and see what each step up tells you about your horse. Obviously you have to consider the scope and get a feel for what's left as the jumps go up, but a lot of horses top out at a lower level or flunk out entirely due to lack of rideability, carefulness, or soundness. Even degrees thereof. You can recognize lack of carefulness right away, but you won't know your horse is a four faulter past 1.35 until you actually try it a few times. Or you may find that the horse that was careful from the beginning is actually *too* careful, and cannot hold his confidence because he doesn't adjust his effort as the fences go up. As the courses get more technical it might become apparent that its not adjustable enough, or fast enough. Or it may have a water problem. That's why young jumpers are a hard sell in comparison to young hunters, there's just so much left to prove to determine how much quality the horse actually has.
                        I thought that was a really good answer.
                        Ian Millar had a young stallion that I saw jump two or so years back. Was doing the 1.4m and cleared them by a mile! But he was in the air for so long that you could have served lunch and at the end did not finish as well as you would think for such scope.
                        I think you can discount a horse easier then you can guarantee they will do well at the end of the day.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ne1 View Post
                          scope... and not just to jump your 5' field fence. but to jump it with a back rail when set 5'6 wide also. that's a whole different scope than the type bandied around so frequently about the horse who manages to get out of the pasture.

                          carefulness... gotta leave the dead wood up, even if you jump to the moon.

                          temperament for training / rideability... here is where more of the tb's don't get to the higher levels today. there's not much they can't jump 'in the raw', but the sport now demands what it didn't used to in terms of immediate and significant adjustments to stride length (lengthening or shortenting), still maintaining the same vertical and width scope, and carefulness.
                          This. And a good dose of luck doesn't hurt, either! Soundness, both physically and mentally, and the ability to get the horse into the hands of the "right" rider/trainer.
                          Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
                          https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
                            There are too many factors that have to actually be tested to make an accurate and certain statement that a young horse will make it as a top level jumper. Generally you have to go through the progression from level to level and see what each step up tells you about your horse. Obviously you have to consider the scope and get a feel for what's left as the jumps go up, but a lot of horses top out at a lower level or flunk out entirely due to lack of rideability, carefulness, or soundness. Even degrees thereof. You can recognize lack of carefulness right away, but you won't know your horse is a four faulter past 1.35 until you actually try it a few times. Or you may find that the horse that was careful from the beginning is actually *too* careful, and cannot hold his confidence because he doesn't adjust his effort as the fences go up. As the courses get more technical it might become apparent that its not adjustable enough, or fast enough. Or it may have a water problem. That's why young jumpers are a hard sell in comparison to young hunters, there's just so much left to prove to determine how much quality the horse actually has.
                            This is a good post! Though a rideable horse will always be a good horse to have in the barn, no matter what level it tops out at--many great eq horses were jumpers that didn't turn out to be GPx horses, for example.

                            The OP's passing reference to "ideal situation, good trainer, rider, etc" can't be over emphasized. It's frighteningly easy to screw up a good horse and completely destroy its chances of developing into a top level performer.

                            There are so many pitfalls along the way that most horses fall into them--I have seen this happen over and over, again, and again.

                            And there is a critically important time frame in which the development must take place, or it becomes too late for the horse's career to come to fruition. Waiting too long to do something about developing the talent, and then underexposing it to good training and the right type of competition is a very common mistake-many times the reason given is that it costs too much money, but IMO, that isn't the main roadblock, as so often the pennywise are being pound foolish in terms of what their money is being spent on.

                            Bottom line is it takes more than a horse with potential to make it to the top. It takes very careful management to get there; when a nice horse doesn't make it, a lack of expertise and judgement on the part of its decision makers is quite often the reason.
                            Inner Bay Equestrian
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                            KERx

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                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Can I mention how great it is for everyone to be talking so nicely, and just answering the question? I appreciate that mucho, you guys rock I've been in agreement with everything ya'll have posted so far, it's all quite true. LOL, serving lunch while the horse was still up... I've seen lots of those, ridden several!
                              Trying a life outside of FEI tents and hotel rooms.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Just wanted to add that jumping talent has proven to be HIGHLY heritable..... Blood often tells!

                                I look for a "cat like" athletecism, easy, natural lead changes, and a "light footed" way of going.... Combined with a good canter, these thinks point to natural talent, IMHO.....
                                Sporting Chance Farm/Dr Carlos and Karin Jimenez
                                Breeders of International Quality KWPN Horses
                                2006 KWPN-NA Breeders of the Year/2006 Res CH USDF DSHB Breeders Year
                                www.sportingchancefarm.com

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                                • #17
                                  I agree with CBoylen's post.

                                  I will add that the traits I look for in a youngster are a wickedly smart horse with a bit of a naughty streak. I want a horse who, when faced with something new, might spook at it, but then wants to investigate. This doesn't always translate under saddle, of course, but what I'm looking for is a horse who's a bit cautious, but also bold.

                                  When they're a little older and under saddle, I want a horse who will test me periodically. Greg Best always talks about "initiative" being a big factor in a good horse, and I agree that I want a horse with enough intiative to make their own decisions, but not so much initiative that they're not willing to listen to my input. The sweet spot is the horse who can bail you out of a mistake on their own accord, but will listen when you ask for something out on course. And I think the intelligence/initiative factor is so much more important than scope. I've had horses with all the scope in the world, but none of their own initiative, and while those horses may make great amateur-type horse (because they're often the type to be very forgiving of mistakes), IME they don't have what it takes to go clean over the big sticks. I've also had the opposite.....also not good prospects for the big jumps.

                                  I don't want a horse who rockets into the stratosphere over jumps.....ever. This signifies (to me) a horse who stands a very good chance of scaring themselves as the jumps get bigger. Don't get me wrong, I want them to *want* to go clean (and I don't mind a temper tantrum whenever they hit a pole), but I don't want them to be literally scared to hit a fence. But after learning a very hard-earned lesson about carefulness, I also won't expend time and energy into a horse that doesn't make an effort to clear jumps from early on. If a horse routinely pulls rails early in their career I head them in a different direction (i.e. not the big jumpers).

                                  I agree with people who say there are really too many factors to give a succinct list of traits. Though there are several recent threads about this very topic (the last one that comes to mind is this one: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=302433). I think the traits vary from horse to horse and definitely vary from what any given rider can handle. For me, the only trait I'm absolutely unwilling to budge on is that wicked intelligence. I may also be biased because I've had a couple of incredibly successful big jumpers with limited scope but huge hearts (and brains). Ideally I'd like everything in one package, but that's a crapshoot that you never figure out until you get to the level you want to be at.

                                  For a young horse I think the best you can say is, "this one MIGHT be a great upper level prospect." Or, in other words, "so far so good." Beyond that, you have to get there to see.
                                  __________________________________
                                  Flying F Sport Horses
                                  Horses in the NW

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                                  • #18
                                    My natural jumpers have all jumped anything that was in front of them including the 4 1/2' arena fences starting as young as 3 days. The other ones that became jumpers did so with encouragement and not punishment being lunged over jumps and cavaletti.

                                    Ungenerous or "small hearted" horses do not become good jumpers regardless of the level of talent or training.
                                    Cindy Bergmann
                                    Canterbury Court
                                    559-903-4814
                                    www.canterbury-court.com

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