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How do you decide if a colt is a stallion prospect? Update post 143

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Bayhawk View Post
    Stats compiled by Dr. Nissen , breeding director of the Holsteiner Verband. I think it was 65% of all approved Holsteiner stallions were NOT premium foals. His statement ran in Pferd & Sport magazine.
    And since about 50-55% of Holsteiner foals are awarded the designation "premium foal" this designation is truly meaningless when it comes to evaluating potential stallion prospects.
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    • #22
      Wait and see...you can always cut 'em off...never paste them back on.
      http://www.selahwaysporthorses.com/

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      • #23
        I come at this a bit differently I think because of my background (was a repro vet before crossing over to the dark side to be able to pay for my showing fees). I fell in love with a breed which has low numbers in this country. I also am very married to one specific discipline though I do compete in others. Because of those two things I look at one breed with one discipline in mind. I select all those I choose to keep as my own based on those criteria. Over the years I've owned, ridden, trained and shown a variety of this breed and have developed some distinct preferences for bloodlines based on my experience. I'm the only test dummy here so ability AND disposition/trainability is very important to me and foremost on my mind. So between my background - I have handled stallions both in the breeding shed and have trained and shown them over the years (mostly for others and actually of various breeds) and my dream/goals for myself I have looked on and off for "the right one".

        I am fortunate that I have the facility to maintain a stallion. I have given a few colts the opportunity to grow up and demonstrate what type of citizen they're going to be. I had one that "had it all" except he wasn't bold and fed too much on the rider. I gelded him as a four year old. It was tough because he had dying out bloodlines, perfect conformation that met the breed standard and the gaits. Still since I am the one that does all the backing/training I knew I did not want to have to deal with even a few like minded souls. He was never bred.

        My current studly is 5. He is a perfect gentleman. While he definitely has the look of a stallion many are caught by surprise (especially mare owners) when riding in company to find out that he is a breeding stallion. He too has dying out bloodlines that I so want to preserve (I owned and showed his grand dam). His gaits are to die for and his conformation is perfect. The best thing though is that this guy is solid mind-wise. I am ready at any point to geld this guy if he ever gives me a reason to but so far he has proven himself in every way. The next "step" is I'm waiting to see what his foals turn out to be like.

        Again, I have the facility to do that. He is not in isolation. I ride with my kids on their horses daily. He has a shared fence line with our geldings. He is turned out 24/7. He was turned out with an older gelding until he got a little too rough in his play but he plays over the top of the fence regularly and has plenty of physical contact with his buddies. Every day I look at him, I know I have made the right decision. I have considered collecting and freezing and then gelding but in all honesty I love him just the way he is. I have no delusions that I will make money as a stallion owner. I ride and compete as an ammy. I do not plan to breed to outside mares because of my work and schedule (can't cater to mare owners the way I should so I won't). For these reasons, this guy or any guy that gets to keep his jewels while living on my property has to demonstrate their value to me as is every day So to finally answer your question: I just knew. Sure on paper I can jusitify it 100 times over but in the end every time I look at him, I know he is the one for me.

        I do not find owning a stallion to be a hindrance or a problem or even a challenge.....but I still keep the emasculators handy and on the ready.
        Ranch of Last Resort

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        • #24
          Originally posted by selah View Post
          Wait and see...you can always cut 'em off...never paste them back on.
          LOL, my thoughts exactly, you can't ungeld them.
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          • #25
            Originally posted by tom View Post
            And since about 50-55% of Holsteiner foals are awarded the designation "premium foal" this designation is truly meaningless when it comes to evaluating potential stallion prospects.
            Agreed. I have witnessed some really bad looking colts at 4-6 months of age only to be approved as stallions 2 years later.

            I say get em on the ground and forget about em til later.........

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            • #26
              Originally posted by back in the saddle View Post
              If I had a colt, "my" first requirement would be that he must have a gelding like temperment. In the field he can be a big idiot all he likes, but in hand and in close quarters with people, the colt must be a perfect sane gentleman.

              And then you can consider his conformation and whethere or not he checks that box or not.
              And this is exactly why this country doesn't raise good stallions. You want a stallion to have a gelding like temperment ? Why have a stallion then ?

              Where I come from , we cut those. It's one of the first things I look to when selecting a stallion. Does he have presence ? I want him to be very expressive. I want to know I'm looking at a stallion when I look at him.

              Proper stallion behaviour is in the training. He will learn very quickly when it's time to show or if it's time to breed.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by Bayhawk View Post
                And this is exactly why this country doesn't raise good stallions. You want a stallion to have a gelding like temperment ? Why have a stallion then ?

                Where I come from , we cut those. It's one of the first things I look to when selecting a stallion. Does he have presence ? I want him to be very expressive. I want to know I'm looking at a stallion when I look at him.

                Proper stallion behaviour is in the training. He will learn very quickly when it's time to show or if it's time to breed.
                Exactly !!!!

                And this kind of presence they already show as foals I think.

                Anyways. If you would ike to have a stallion you need to leave him intact and wait and see. But it is easier for me to say so as we in this country do not think a stallion is a liability and do not forbid children to ride them...
                I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
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                May: Finnigan - Sandro Hit - SPS Rouletto

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                • #28
                  Why have a stallion with a gelding like attitude? Because no horse is worth getting killed over no matter how much presence it has. Geldings can have plenty of presence by the way. I'm not talking about wanting a gelding dead head attitude. I'm talking about keeping the ones with nice attitudes on the ground that don't act like they want to kill you just becasue you told them to do somethign expected of a domesticated horse. There are some stallions that really shouldn't be due to temperment issues.

                  But it is easier for me to say so as we in this country do not think a stallion is a liability and do not forbid children to ride them...
                  See.. if a child can ride a stallion with no worries from adults, this is what I would term a "gelding" attitude.
                  Fresh, Frozen & ISO Warmblood Breedings FB Group

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                  • #29
                    If I had a colt, "my" first requirement would be that he must have a gelding like temperment. In the field he can be a big idiot all he likes, but in hand and in close quarters with people, the colt must be a perfect sane gentleman.
                    You would not have bred to Stedinger, then, if this was your first requirement. Nor to probably 99% of German stallions. Stallion presence and expression is a huge determining factor for the licensing committees when selecting colts for licensing. They do not want "gelding-like" temperaments in their stallions.

                    And if you think they should be "perfect" all the time when in hand, there would be VERY few colts getting licensed at the big European licensings. Those boys can get pretty rowdy.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by back in the saddle View Post
                      Why have a stallion with a gelding like attitude? Because no horse is worth getting killed over no matter how much presence it has. Geldings can have plenty of presence by the way. I'm not talking about wanting a gelding dead head attitude. I'm talking about keeping the ones with nice attitudes on the ground that don't act like they want to kill you just becasue you told them to do somethign expected of a domesticated horse.

                      See.. if a child can ride a stallion with no worries from adults, this is what I would term a "gelding" attitude.
                      There is a huge difference between "gelding temperament" and a good minded stallion who learns what is accepted behavior and what is not.

                      I daresay the approved stallions ridden by children in Germany exhibit plenty of masculinity and stallion expression - they just know the difference between breeding behavior and riding behavior.

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                        There is a huge difference between "gelding temperament" and a good minded stallion who learns what is accepted behavior and what is not.
                        True.. and if it can't learn to be like a gelding in hand it needs to be gelded.

                        Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                        I daresay the approved stallions ridden by children in Germany exhibit plenty of masculinity and stallion expression - they just know the difference between breeding behavior and riding behavior.
                        Nobody sane would put a child on an agressive horse. There IS a difference between "masculinity and stallion expression" and plain too agressive.

                        You would not have bred to Stedinger, then, if this was your first requirement. Nor to probably 99% of German stallions. Stallion presence and expression is a huge determining factor for the licensing committees when selecting colts for licensing. They do not want "gelding-like" temperaments in their stallions.

                        And if you think they should be "perfect" all the time when in hand, there would be VERY few colts getting licensed at the big European licensings. Those boys can get pretty rowdy.
                        And if my Stedinger foal had been a colt and acted too agressive and didn't learn what was acceptable or not, it would be gelded. I learned one rule from a stallion owning friend: "Halter on Balls OFF". And if it was a young horse and learned to be good in hand / "gelding like" then it would be a candidate - (for someone else). That's the difference. Some horse can't learn/(won't) to behave in hand.

                        But admit that regardless of what my filly is like, good, bad, excellent, horrible, that if it puts one step wrong, forget that it's a young horse, you won't like it because it's by Stedinger. Just admit it and get it out of the way now.
                        Fresh, Frozen & ISO Warmblood Breedings FB Group

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                        • #32
                          I vote for keeping him entire and letting him grow up. Take him out showing over the summer and see what the judges think of him. You can always geld him later, but until later comes I'd give him a chance.
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                          • #33
                            You should get good advice from the registry that inspects him.
                            ... _. ._ .._. .._

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                            • #34
                              I agree he is to young -- that is why the Hanoverian system does not award "premiums" and such, they just wait until 2 1/2 to evaluate. I agree with back in the saddle --Susanne and Scott Hassler told me once that the day to geld is the day they get studish and dangerous. Who needs it?!! My Hanoverian stallion was a perfect gentleman and was turned out with my gelding until he left my farm at age 3 1/2. In fact, he would still crouch down low and make the subservient baby mouth if my gelding got mad at him!

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                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                We aren't into inspecting foals in the UK. The registries don't usually look at a horse until it goes before them for its grading. However we do have something called the Futurity. This is an independent inspection of foals to 3 year olds across all disciplines and studbooks. It includes sports ponies as well as horses and you have to declare what career the young horse will be aimed at when they are under saddle. The choices are dressage, showjumping, eventing and endurance.

                                Carrying from the discussion about 65% of Holstein stallions not being premium foals (and 50-55% of foals going premium which surely says that the verband are missing more potential stallions than they are spotting!!!) I don't put much weight in an assessment of a foal. They can fail to show themselves properly on the day or refuse to trot or just get tired. Judges can only mark what they see in front of them and if what is presented is below par then the foal will get a lower mark than their quality deserves. The same is true of an average foal that happens to be full of beans and really pings off the ground and struts their stuff.

                                I think I'll keep him entire for now and see how he goes. If he's good I'll take him to the Futurity as a 3yo when an Elite premium leads to an assessment for the Equine Pathway that is used to spot potential international horses. My Trakehner mare went Elite as a 3yo and will be assessed next year by the dressage Equine Pathway panel when she will be 6 and will be expected to show half pass and flying changes like the FEI 6yo test. The links between the Futurity and the Eventing pathway are tighter than for dressage. If this colt looks like a future eventer (can't decide whether he's an event prospect or a dressage prospect at the moment) and he does well he would be invited to the Eventing Young Horse Championships. If he does well in that it would help very much with an AES stallion grading which happens late in the year, after the Futurity and after the Eventing Championships. The AES are very competition orientated and take major championship results into account when looking at potential stallions.

                                So if he is going to be a stallion he has got to be one of the best in the country which is what a stallion should be. In many ways getting an Elite at the Futurity is harder than stallion grading as it looks at over 900 horses and only the top 2% go Elite and breeders only bring their very best stock to be assessed. If he isn't good enough he will become a gelding. If he doesn't have the right temperament he will become a gelding. If I change my mind he will become a gelding. But I will give him a chance and see how this pans out.

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                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
                                  In my view if you decide a colt is not a stallion prospect 100% of the time you will be correct at least 99% of the time.
                                  Ditto!
                                  Chris Misita
                                  www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net Home of Bravo and Warrick!
                                  To dare; progress comes at this price. All sublime conquests are, more or less, the rewards of daring.
                                  Victor Hugo

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                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                                    You would not have bred to Stedinger, then, if this was your first requirement. Nor to probably 99% of German stallions. Stallion presence and expression is a huge determining factor for the licensing committees when selecting colts for licensing. They do not want "gelding-like" temperaments in their stallions.

                                    And if you think they should be "perfect" all the time when in hand, there would be VERY few colts getting licensed at the big European licensings. Those boys can get pretty rowdy.


                                    Exactly~!
                                    I've seen very few popular stallions with "Gelding like disposition!"
                                    Chris Misita
                                    www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net Home of Bravo and Warrick!
                                    To dare; progress comes at this price. All sublime conquests are, more or less, the rewards of daring.
                                    Victor Hugo

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                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by back in the saddle View Post
                                      True.. and if it can't learn to be like a gelding in hand it needs to be gelded.
                                      I am very sorry but if that would be the case the horse would not be licensed at all. A stallion has to show presence and not look like a gelding in hand. they even say at the preselections that this or that one is not selected because lacking stallion presence !
                                      There is a reason behind that: "Survival of the fittest" and hence evolution theory.

                                      But if bad behaviour put as equal to being a stallion I can see where the point comes from that a stallion needs to behavce as a gelding. We just do not put bad behaviour as equal to stallion behaviour. A stallion can be a stallion and nevertheless be obedient to rider, in hand and towards other horses.



                                      Originally posted by back in the saddle View Post
                                      Nobody sane would put a child on an agressive horse. There IS a difference between "masculinity and stallion expression" and plain too agressive.
                                      Again Sorry, but you do not have a clue about what kids do over here ! There are a lot of kids that can handle a stallion even if he acts a bit like a stallion. They just have learned how to handle a stallion and no one makes a big fuss about it. they just do it.
                                      At the Bundeschampionat the classes for 5 and 6 year old ponies only children under 18 (maybe even 16 - I am not sure) are allowed on them - no matter whether breeding stallion, gelding or mare !
                                      In the 3 and 4 yo pony classes adults are allowed up to a certain weight, but you will also see kids riding stallions, some even just 12 years old and winning against professional adults.
                                      Handling a stallion does not have anything to do with being a child or not, but with a bit of experience and consequencse and knowing that a stallion is not a pet. Noone (or few) over here makes a fuss about a stallion under saddle of a kid or someone else or being within the same barn, ridden in the same arena. And the less fuss - the lesser problems.

                                      And in my eyes and from my experience there are no morte or less bad behaving horses amoungst stallions, mares or geldings. And in the least cases these horses are mean by nature or sex, but there behaviour is man made by treating the horses in a wrong way.
                                      A stallion that is shut away in barns with no social contact (because he is so dangeraous) will at some point turn mean. You will see stallions in normal riding barns (no professional barns) in germany standing right in the middle of other horses. Maybe not next to mares but just in the same barn without any changes to the boxstall. I fact the last barn I was in an ex-breeding stallion had the first stall in the aisle. Everyone had to pass him no matter whether gelding, mare. No issue at all. Sometimes if the mares are in heat he mumbles a bit and acts up. But as noone cares about that, no one has a problem. he even has a stall with a paddock that he can go in and out as much as he wants to. And the paddock is also in front of his neighbour's boxstall which has an open window. The two gelding and this stallion socialize and there is no issue. And this horse does not look or behave like a gelding at all. We even have to pass this paddock when we want to ride outside. The paddock is only fenced with wire and the wire is not more than 1,4m high (maybe even less).
                                      Real problems with stallions are manmade and the other problems exist in the mninds of people who have never learned or experienced a normal way to handle a stallion !
                                      I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                                      www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
                                      2017: March: Filly by Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - SPS Prince Thatch
                                      May: Finnigan - Sandro Hit - SPS Rouletto

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                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by alexandra View Post
                                        I am very sorry but if that would be the case the horse would not be licensed at all. A stallion has to show presence and not look like a gelding in hand. they even say at the preselections that this or that one is not selected because lacking stallion presence !
                                        There is a reason behind that: "Survival of the fittest" and hence evolution theory.

                                        But if bad behaviour put as equal to being a stallion I can see where the point comes from that a stallion needs to behavce as a gelding. We just do not put bad behaviour as equal to stallion behaviour. A stallion can be a stallion and nevertheless be obedient to rider, in hand and towards other horses.





                                        Again Sorry, but you do not have a clue about what kids do over here ! There are a lot of kids that can handle a stallion even if he acts a bit like a stallion. They just have learned how to handle a stallion and no one makes a big fuss about it. they just do it.
                                        At the Bundeschampionat the classes for 5 and 6 year old ponies only children under 18 (maybe even 16 - I am not sure) are allowed on them - no matter whether breeding stallion, gelding or mare !
                                        In the 3 and 4 yo pony classes adults are allowed up to a certain weight, but you will also see kids riding stallions, some even just 12 years old and winning against professional adults.
                                        Handling a stallion does not have anything to do with being a child or not, but with a bit of experience and consequencse and knowing that a stallion is not a pet. Noone (or few) over here makes a fuss about a stallion under saddle of a kid or someone else or being within the same barn, ridden in the same arena. And the less fuss - the lesser problems.

                                        And in my eyes and from my experience there are no morte or less bad behaving horses amoungst stallions, mares or geldings. And in the least cases these horses are mean by nature or sex, but there behaviour is man made by treating the horses in a wrong way.
                                        A stallion that is shut away in barns with no social contact (because he is so dangeraous) will at some point turn mean. You will see stallions in normal riding barns (no professional barns) in germany standing right in the middle of other horses. Maybe not next to mares but just in the same barn without any changes to the boxstall. I fact the last barn I was in an ex-breeding stallion had the first stall in the aisle. Everyone had to pass him no matter whether gelding, mare. No issue at all. Sometimes if the mares are in heat he mumbles a bit and acts up. But as noone cares about that, no one has a problem. he even has a stall with a paddock that he can go in and out as much as he wants to. And the paddock is also in front of his neighbour's boxstall which has an open window. The two gelding and this stallion socialize and there is no issue. And this horse does not look or behave like a gelding at all. We even have to pass this paddock when we want to ride outside. The paddock is only fenced with wire and the wire is not more than 1,4m high (maybe even less).
                                        Real problems with stallions are manmade and the other problems exist in the mninds of people who have never learned or experienced a normal way to handle a stallion !
                                        You go Alexandra !

                                        One of the questions the Holsteiner Verband judge asked about my stallion when he approved him was....... " Who raised this stallion" ? I said I did and he said "I can tell" . He said he had more stallion presence than any stallion put before him on the whole tour . He had this enormous presence because I always let him be who he was. Fire breathing dragon ? Not hardly.

                                        If I was leading him into the barn as a young stallion and he wanted to talk to the mares........I let him talk to the mares ! Then we went on about our buisness. Like you said.....why make a fuss ? Let them be who they are.

                                        You don't need to have a stallion with a gelding temperment. Folks need to become better horsemen !
                                        Last edited by Bayhawk; May. 21, 2011, 09:22 PM.

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                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by alexandra View Post
                                          Real problems with stallions are manmade and the other problems exist in the mninds of people who have never learned or experienced a normal way to handle a stallion !
                                          Alexandra, I agree with you completely, especially this last bit! So many people are incapable of raising and handling a stallion! I think we could learn a thing or two from European breeders, not just in bloodlines, but also a way of handling. This of course does not extend to all North Americans, there are plenty that are capable and do a fabulous job. Wish there were more like this!

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