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Calling TB pedigree experts

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  • Calling TB pedigree experts

    I would be very curious to hear thoughts and impressions on the following pedigree, in terms of sporthorse breeding:

    Fleurs And Bows, 1990 Thoroughbred mare
    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/fleurs+and+bows

    I'm no Thoroughbred pedigree expert anyways, and most of these names go right over my head! Help?

    Thanks in advance for your time!
    ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

  • #2
    I don't think there is anything really fancy there... If your looking to breed to get a sport horse the confortmation and movement of the thoroughbred are more important then the pedigree anyways. Thats the great thing about TB's... you don't have to base as much on their lines...

    Who are you looking to breed her to?
    "My ideal horse is the horse that I fall in love with again every morning when I see his face hanging over the stable door, looking for breakfast. " - Jim Wofford

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    • #3
      Actually, that's a really nice pedigree for sport -- double Alibhai, top and bottom,once through Your Host which incorporates Mahmoud. Blue Larkspur, Count Fleet, Sickle even Man o' War on her page are great old lines you don't see much of that close. Polynesian sired Native Dancer, but he is a wonderful line, grandson of Sickle and out of Black Polly. Quatre Bras is a half brother to Bull Lea and a full brother to another well know stallion in sport - Sir Gallahad. My foundation mare shared many of those lines -- love them!
      PennyG

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      • #4
        Don't know what this mare looks like but she is very well bred for sport. Amazed at how close up some very old and famous names are... Hyperion, Mahmoud, Blue Larkspur... Black Polly and Count Fleet too, as they go back to Sunridge, a very good source of jumping ability. Constant is loaded with Dark Ronald, a very important horse in jumping breeding.

        Some info about Dark Ronald: http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/cg...001/000129.htm
        Last edited by grayarabpony; May. 11, 2011, 09:24 AM.

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        • #5
          Here is what I have on Alibhai in my sporthorse stallion database:

          Alibhai
          (Hyperion x Teresina) Great Britain | United Kingdom 1938 - | Chestnut
          * Alibhai was also a top racing broodmare sire. His daughter Flower Bowl being the dam of full brothers Graustark and His Majesty as well as champion 2 and 3 year old filly Bowl of Flowers, etc. * Sire of Traffic Judge

          A double cross to him is nice!

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Thank-you so much guys!!!

            Vic, the mare actually does not belong to me but is the dam of my mare's dam. She doesn't appear to have raced from what I can find?? This mare (Fleurs And Bows) was bred to Wodan for my mare's dam (Kiera). Kiera is still producing within a sporthorse program (by the same individual who bred my mare) according to my recent research, however I have never seen her in person or seen any photos of her.

            I had sort of discounted the Thoroughbred in my mare (*sheepish*) but felt it was maybe time to investigate that side further This mare is really impressing me so far (she is intended as a jumper) and I am very excited to be starting her now (she turns four in July)... glad to see she's got sporthorse and jumper written on her Thoroughbred side (1/4) as well as her Hano (3/4) side! I'll contact the original breeder once she's fully started u/s with an update.

            Again, thank-you so much for your time and links

            Eta: wow, my appreciation is even greater after researching bloodlines literally all morning - all the above information really provided me what I needed to do that research. As it turns out, Dark Ronald is loaded on both sides of my mare's pedigree, on both the Hano (unsurprisingly) - by way of Pik As - and the Thoroughbred side of course. It's interesting how intertwined all the breeding is on both sides Great education!!!
            Last edited by naturalequus; May. 11, 2011, 04:04 PM.
            ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
            ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
              Don't know what this mare looks like but she is very well bred for sport. Amazed at how close up some very old and famous names are... Hyperion, Mahmoud, Blue Larkspur... Black Polly and Count Fleet too, as they go back to Sunridge, a very good source of jumping ability. Constant is loaded with Dark Ronald, a very important horse in jumping breeding.

              Some info about Dark Ronald: http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/cg...001/000129.htm
              this is true 3 and 4 generations back but we are also talking about a 21 year old mare.....so since you posted this is the granddam of your horse the gems are really getting to be back 5/6 generations now. Just saying the influence will be less that far down the pike. However, since they are linebred that may show through a bit more.
              Providence Farm
              http://providencefarmpintos.blogspot.com/

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              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by camohn View Post
                this is true 3 and 4 generations back but we are also talking about a 21 year old mare.....so since you posted this is the granddam of your horse the gems are really getting to be back 5/6 generations now. Just saying the influence will be less that far down the pike. However, since they are linebred that may show through a bit more.
                For sure, I definitely understand they are but a small piece of her bloodlines... I'm actually going to post what is essentially the rest of her pedigree, as I still need help despite all my research thus far

                Eta: posted in another thread, please do feel free to comment, I'd love some help.
                Last edited by naturalequus; May. 11, 2011, 07:53 PM.
                ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
                ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I just went to look at the pedigree, and Allbreed is offline. So I put the name into the Equineline database, and got "No matches found". That doesn't mean she isn't a registered TB as she just might not be on their online database. So then I went to my APR which is good to 1995, which would be after this horse's birth.

                  There is a 1980 model Fleurs 'N Bows, and that one is on Equineline. Windy Sands x Silk Dress? Is that the one?

                  None of the horses in the pedigree appear in the 4 generation 1981 Dr. Birdsall books on North American sport horse pedigrees before the Equineline third generation. However the full sister of Your Host, Your Hostess, does. In the 3rd and 4th and back, there are many sport horses that he researched who shared ancestors with this mare.
                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Yes vineyridge, that is the one, Windy Sands x Silk Dress... according to my girl's papers Fleurs And Bows is supposed to be a 1990 model but I see her too on equineline now, as a 1980 model. I found her on allbreedpedigree and have the link in my OP, though it is not coming up for me right now. The equineline pedigree looks to be correct however.

                    I don't think anything prior to the 3rd generation did much that was especially note-worthy - that I can find, though of course I could be wrong. All the good ones seem a little further back, albeit it is still interesting

                    I posted what is essentially the remainder of my mare's pedigree in another thread just today, any thoughts on the Hanoverian lines?
                    ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
                    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Don't get me wrong, I love TBS! And I own one I just find that there are alot of base lines that seem to show up frequently... War Admiral, Man O War, Northern Dancer etc.... get me?

                      So for sport breeding, alot has to do with immediate researh of specific line temperatments and trainability... Plus the conformation. I'd rather see the horse first then base my opinion off bloodlines. Unless its a newer stallion... A fine romance... Ascot Knight etc

                      TB's are pretty multitalented... the horses in a tb's line could have done a multitude of things and careers. The warmblood system of approving them is a bit more specific and gives a much more accurate when your looking at bloodlines.

                      Im not saying by any means it is pointlless to look up their bloodlines... I like it too and it is interesting! I just don't know if I would base an opinion on suitability unless I saw the horse first.
                      "My ideal horse is the horse that I fall in love with again every morning when I see his face hanging over the stable door, looking for breakfast. " - Jim Wofford

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Oh I'm not basing any opinion on suitability here based on bloodlines, no worries

                        I entirely agree with you, vic, you can't ride paper! On the other hand, when certain lines show certain tendencies, you can gauge to an extent what tendency the horse in front of you might show, and when a horse is bred with certain selected traits, you will have a higher chance of obtaining those traits. I think with sport breeding, pedigree is fairly important, because I want to see the traits I see in the horse in front of me - the reason I am breeding her - supported by the horses in that horse's pedigree. This way hopefully the foal will have a higher tendency to the specific traits I am breeding for. I would not make a judgement call based solely on pedigree alone though, and definitely not when choosing a mount (as opposed to choosing a broodmare).

                        When it comes to Thoroughbreds to buy and ride, I honestly have never looked at pedigree - I've always looked at the horse in front of me, and it's worked great for me. I am curious though with this (CWB) mare as to her (1/4) Thoroughbred heritage both just for kicks and also because some day she will be bred. None of the names on her TB side were really familiar to me.

                        This all has made me curious now to research more in depth my other guys and gals, just for curiosity's sake
                        ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
                        ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

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