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"New" OCD Study?

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    "New" OCD Study?

    Today I had a very brief phone conversation with a vet I haven't used in ages. In passing she mentioned a study that was presented at the AAEP convention (don't know which year) that showed a definite link between mineral imbalance (primarily Ca+/Ph and magnesium/copper) and OCD.

    Apparently in the study they actually bred foals and fed either the mares and/or the foals diets that stessed these imbalances. Most of the foals developed OCD lesions everywhere, including their spines.

    Google doesn't bring up much and I didn't have time to question the vet more on when/who/where this study was done.

    Anyone have more info on it?

    #2
    My vet told me this when I had a gelding with OCD. This was in 2004.

    In my geldings case I believe it was the mare who was fed improperly when she was in foal. Unknown to me until long afterwards, the mare had been passed around through some auctions before foaling. I found this out by looking at her papers and all the transfers that had been done.

    Great post, we all need to know as much as we can about OCD. OCD can occur in up to 10 places in the body, yes also their spines.

    My horse had them in his hock. After surgery, and recovery he was sound. $$$ though.

    Comment


      #3
      I think it's been known for a while that copper deficiencies are one of the environmental (nutrition) components of OCD.
      ______________________________
      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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        #4
        That's why I feed Buckeye Foal Aid daily starting at 1 week of age. They like it too!
        Producing horses with gentle minds & brilliant movement!
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          #5
          Originally posted by JB View Post
          I think it's been known for a while that copper deficiencies are one of the environmental (nutrition) components of OCD.
          Yep, I knew all about those minerals and their relation to OCD back in 1996, when we started realizing that one of my broodmares was consistently producing foals with OCD in the hocks. (Once we realized the pattern, she was retired from broodmare duties, as we believed it was genetics rather than feed) But I assume the recent study just finally proves the thoughts of what many vets have believed over the years.
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            #6
            My broodies go on a vitamin supplement high in cooper for the last three months of their pregnancy
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              #7
              Try Google Scholar?

              There are several studies that look at copper - some investigating the prenatal diet (such as Knight et al. 1990), and others investigating foal diet (such as Hertig et al. 1993). Hertig et al. found a correlation between low copper and OCD. The Knight study was specifically testing the type of copper supplement.

              Ca/P comes up a lot too. Magnesium isn't bringing up many hits.

              Comment

                Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by smm20 View Post
                Try Google Scholar?

                There are several studies that look at copper - some investigating the prenatal diet (such as Knight et al. 1990), and others investigating foal diet (such as Hertig et al. 1993). Hertig et al. found a correlation between low copper and OCD. The Knight study was specifically testing the type of copper supplement.

                Ca/P comes up a lot too. Magnesium isn't bringing up many hits.
                Thanks smm20. THIS is what I'm looking for -- a copy of the actual study itself, when it was done, the size of the study, etc.

                As another poster noted, we need to know all we can, but a badly designed or small study that is not duplicated with the same results is useless.

                To the best of my knowledge the most recent large study was the one done in Germany (over 200 mares & their foals). Foals were followed for 3 years and x-rayed as youngsters & again as 3 yr olds. Many foals show "OCD" when they are under 1 yr of age, but these disapper by the time they are mature.

                So rads on foals don't prove much.

                According to this study, their is a small (11% if I recall) inheritability component, almost nothing to do with diet (of course these were all experienced WB breeders, so no one was starving their mares or foals).

                By far the biggest influence was on management -- as in the amount of time the foals got in turn-out. THe more pasture time they got, the less chance of developing OCD.

                I think this study was done in early 2000ish. Part of it is on the AHS site.

                I just wanted to know if this study the vet mentioned has been done recently or if it's "old news..."

                Comment


                  #9
                  Did a citation search for anything published in 2009 or more recently - nothing like what you're looking for, but A LOT of articles that focus on identifying specific genes that are associated with the disorder (and then trying to figure out what the genes do).

                  Nothing since 2005 either - so either the study you want is not yet published, or is an older study.

                  The AAEP doesn't have their meeting abstracts available online or in a journal, which is very frustrating.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Equine studies need more power and better controls

                    "As another poster noted, we need to know all we can, but a badly designed or small study that is not duplicated with the same results is useless."

                    As a physician, this is my frustration with equine medicine in general. I am a HUGE believer in evidenced based medicine, and so much of equine medicine is not. As a human example, when I was in medical school (graduated 1993), we told Moms to sleep babies on their stomachs so that, if they spit up, they wouldn't choke which was the "makes sense" and "handed down through the years" wisdom. Then the big study came out that showed that sleeping infants on their stomachs increases the risk of sudden infant death syndrome, and now we tell Moms to sleep babies on their back with real research to stand behind that recommendation.

                    To have any real power, a study needs a large number of participants and should be double blinded and controlled. I know this is not easy to do with horses because of money issues, etc.; however, I think we are often basing decisions about our horses on the same "common sense" wisdom that led pediatricians for years to tell parents to sleep babies on their stomachs.

                    "According to this study, their is a small (11% if I recall) inheritability component...."

                    Wow, I would not consider that small, that is HUGE. And it makes sense. Large horses that grow fast are more likely to get OCD and that is certainly going to be genetically determined. Like many conditions, OCD is likely multifactorial - genetic and environmental. I certainly agree that I would not breed a horse with OCD given 11% heritability - too many nice horses without OCD out there.

                    Hopefully, some big equine donor will put some more money into a good study.
                    "A"
                    www.witsendeventing.com

                    Comment

                      Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by classen_eventer View Post
                      "According to this study, their is a small (11% if I recall) inheritability component...."

                      Wow, I would not consider that small, that is HUGE.
                      Why so? I mean, from a scientific point of view?

                      If someone told me I had only an 11% chance of dying on the operating table (let's say I had an issue that required surgery), I'd consider those fair odds.

                      If someone told me I had an 11% chance of winning the Lottery, I probably WOULD start playing, but I wouldn't drain my bank acct. buying tickets.

                      11% chance of inheriting a disease/disorder means you have a 90% chance of NOT getting it, which seems to me a pretty good gamble.

                      Am I missing something here? I think it is obvious I did not take Statistics in college, but I sort of wish I had these days....

                      And the study I'm mentioning done in Germany was not a double blind with a control group. Not sure how they selected the 200 mares (who were xrayed) and I don't think they x-rayed the sires, since supposedly no approved WB stallions in Germany have OCD, so right there I can see issues.

                      Then they xrayed the foals at certain intervals, the last time being when they were 3 yrs old, if memory serves. Meanwhile, all the breeders had to keep records of diet of mare/foal, turn-out time, supplements, etc.

                      I wish this sort of study would be duplicated here in America -- easy enough to do on a big TB or SB farm, but considering 80% of their yearlings are in having OCD surgery before the big sales would tend to bugger up the results...

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
                        Today I had a very brief phone conversation with a vet I haven't used in ages. In passing she mentioned a study that was presented at the AAEP convention (don't know which year) that showed a definite link between mineral imbalance (primarily Ca+/Ph and magnesium/copper) and OCD.

                        Apparently in the study they actually bred foals and fed either the mares and/or the foals diets that stessed these imbalances. Most of the foals developed OCD lesions everywhere, including their spines.

                        Google doesn't bring up much and I didn't have time to question the vet more on when/who/where this study was done.

                        Anyone have more info on it?
                        So the results of this study caused lesions to develop in the 10 areas (as mentioned)?

                        I'm curious about horses who develop lesions in one of the areas. What is more common? One or all ten?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
                          Why so? I mean, from a scientific point of view?

                          If someone told me I had only an 11% chance of dying on the operating table (let's say I had an issue that required surgery), I'd consider those fair odds.
                          Heritability doesn't tell you the odds that something will be passed on. It is a number that describes genetic variation. I actually need to think a bit about how to explain this better. I will post again tomorrow.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by classen_eventer View Post
                            "As another poster noted, we need to know all we can, but a badly designed or small study that is not duplicated with the same results is useless."

                            As a physician, this is my frustration with equine medicine in general. I am a HUGE believer in evidenced based medicine, and so much of equine medicine is not. As a human example, when I was in medical school (graduated 1993), we told Moms to sleep babies on their stomachs so that, if they spit up, they wouldn't choke which was the "makes sense" and "handed down through the years" wisdom. Then the big study came out that showed that sleeping infants on their stomachs increases the risk of sudden infant death syndrome, and now we tell Moms to sleep babies on their back with real research to stand behind that recommendation.

                            To have any real power, a study needs a large number of participants and should be double blinded and controlled. I know this is not easy to do with horses because of money issues, etc.; however, I think we are often basing decisions about our horses on the same "common sense" wisdom that led pediatricians for years to tell parents to sleep babies on their stomachs.

                            "According to this study, their is a small (11% if I recall) inheritability component...."

                            Wow, I would not consider that small, that is HUGE. And it makes sense. Large horses that grow fast are more likely to get OCD and that is certainly going to be genetically determined. Like many conditions, OCD is likely multifactorial - genetic and environmental. I certainly agree that I would not breed a horse with OCD given 11% heritability - too many nice horses without OCD out there.

                            Hopefully, some big equine donor will put some more money into a good study.
                            agree with your post ... Arthur is also an MD (OBGYN). He is amazed at what gets passed off as "credible" in veterinary medicine. Nothing is worse than believing that such-and-such is true, only to discover (usually at the worst possible time) that there was never any credible published peer reviewed science behind it. Whether in canines or equines, I think veterinary science is at it's best when treating injuries. Beyond that, there is not the funding for the research we (breeders) need to accurately answer the day-to-day questions we have.
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                            Comment

                              Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Katis View Post
                              So the results of this study caused lesions to develop in the 10 areas (as mentioned)?

                              I'm curious about horses who develop lesions in one of the areas. What is more common? One or all ten?
                              I don't know -- this is why I'm trying to find the actual study. The vet that mentioned it was in a big rush, so our conversation was brief. Apparently (in the study) they bred a number of foal and deprived them of certain key minerals (including copper), fed the mare a diet where the Ca & Ph were badly out of whack.

                              THe foals were BORN with multiple OCD lesions, including in the spine. Of course then they were all put down.

                              Modern science...

                              Again, don't quote me on total accuracy; that's why I'm trying to track down the actual study.

                              As for the Germany study, certain area were more common for OCD and certain area even were more likely to be inherited. Go to the AHS site for that -- I think it's still posted.

                              Here is the link:http://www.hanoverian.org/ahs_media/...ticles/OCD.pdf

                              The study was published in 2004.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                THe foals were BORN with multiple OCD lesions, including in the spine. Of course then they were all put down

                                Ugghh, that's awful. What a job.
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                                "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Is this the one here?
                                  Published in 2007... I have access to the full article as a pdf if anyone who can't view it wants it send me a pm.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
                                    I don't know -- this is why I'm trying to find the actual study.
                                    I think you refer to a study done by Pearce in 1998 in New Sealand on TB`s
                                    http://books.google.nl/books?id=qTtg...copper&f=false

                                    Starting at end of page 53 (or google on Pearce 1998 OCD)

                                    A same study came up with total different results:

                                    http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...1?crawler=true

                                    Comment

                                      Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Baby View Post
                                      Is this the one here?
                                      Published in 2007... I have access to the full article as a pdf if anyone who can't view it wants it send me a pm.
                                      Thanks for posting this. Someone with a statistical background can help me on this, but the way I'm reading the Abstract seems to indicated they found little difference in the foals whose dams were supplemented with Cu and those that weren't.

                                      I'm I reading that right?

                                      Comment

                                        Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Donella View Post
                                        THe foals were BORN with multiple OCD lesions, including in the spine. Of course then they were all put down

                                        Ugghh, that's awful. What a job.
                                        You're not kidding. You don't even want to know how they do studies of fractures and the safety doses of stuff like wormers....

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