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Full TB or nearly so for eventer?

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  • Full TB or nearly so for eventer?

    Hello all! It has been a LONG time since I've hung around here, but breeding Ms Blush is looking like a strong possibility for next spring, and I'm curious as to what has changed!

    Quick run down on the mare:

    Blushing Maiden, 1998 16.1 TB maiden by Blushing Stage and out of Smart Maiden. Won about $37k in 27 starts, allowance winner, turf horse, purchased off the track in 2003.

    Pictures here and here.

    Really no competition record due to my life getting in the way and then lameness issues. Blush has arthritis at the base of her neck that causes some very mild neuro symptoms that make her uneven behind. She has been stable for several years now, is not in pain and the vet assures me that there is zero reason to think that there is any genetic component. When she was sound, we did do a couple introductory events (smaller than BN but bigger than "pile of poles") and she was absolutely wonderful--forward, eager, willing. Truly a blast to ride and it seemed she really enjoyed it, too.

    I really like this horse and I would be absolutely tickled to get a carbon copy of her (minus the soundness issues, please!) Since we're talking about improving her, better feet would be excellent--she grows the typical LTLH TB foot and it was always a challenge to find a farrier here in Colorado who could manage that. She is completely barefoot now, though, and does fine. More reach in the shoulder would be nice--she seems a bit tight there. And perhaps a better neck set?

    I'd like to stick with a TB stallion or a nearly full TB stallion, who will give me a hot but sensible event horse. I'd prefer in the 16.1 - 16.2 range. Since this horse is a maiden and I really don't know what she'll produce, I'd like a stallion with a solid produce record himself. If we really want to drill it down to minutae, I'd like a bay with some white who will give me a filly

    The two on my short list are A Fine Romance and Mighty Magic. Are there others that I should be looking at? I would especially be interested in any JC registered TB stallions who would be close enough to CO for live cover--I would love to have JC registration.

    I am also considering buying a youngster instead, so if there are any sires who would perhaps not be right for this mare but produce a very nice event horse, please share! I'd still want full TB or nearly full TB.

    Thanks!

  • #2
    I love AFR you have on your list. I would also add Sea Accounts and Deny's stallions especially Formula One I wouldn't rule out a RID as well. Bridon Beale Street RID is doing 1* and producing very nice IDSH for eventing. Also if Acorn Hill's sport horse stallions are still available - Pallas Digon
    http://www.acornhillfarm.com/Irish_Stallions.html
    Epona Farm
    Irish Draughts and Irish Draught Sport horses

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    • #3
      I'd definitely recommend A Fine Romance for your mare if the types go together well. The linebreeding is wonderful, from Uvira as your mare's tail female and his sire's tail female. You'd be adding a a male line to Princequillo to add to AFR's two females, and so you'd have a sex balanced, top and bottom cross to him--soundness, talent and sanity run in his family.

      There would be a HUGE amount of the Royal Charger/Nasrullah 3/4 siblings with this cross, so you'd have to decide if the possible temperament (with males) is worth the risk. Princequillo always toned downed the Nasrullah temperament considerably; and perhaps thanks to that, AFR seems himself to be without and not to pass on that family's temperamental approach to life.

      Put Blush on Sporthorse Breed database if she isn't already there, and do a hypo mating with AFR.

      For a flyer--not so closely interlocked--think about Triple Twist who would bring you the Twist blood and some really classic old lines doubled and tripled, but not nearly the amount of Nasrullah/Royal Charger. And he's only about eight states away from you!
      Last edited by vineyridge; May. 5, 2011, 02:30 PM.
      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
      Thread killer Extraordinaire

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      • #4
        A Fine Romance is very nice Lovely horse... and will give a nice eventer...

        I have a lovely reg TB mare too... I decided to go te route of breeding her to a WB wil alot of thoroughbred background. So my foal will be 75% or more Thoroughbred.
        "My ideal horse is the horse that I fall in love with again every morning when I see his face hanging over the stable door, looking for breakfast. " - Jim Wofford

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        • #5
          Besides all you other wonderful choices...I like Edelweiss De Bonce crossed on a TB for eventing. He's 80% blood with solid jumping lines and himself was a GP dressage horse. Very good mind. The french lines seem to be really doing well with the current eventing format.

          http://www.avalon-equine.com/Edelweiss.html

          http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=453881

          Additional full TBs to consider (bay)

          Innkeeper (if he is still available)
          http://www.enavantstud.com/stallions.html

          Also there is a TB race stallion called Lyracist who stands in PA who seems to be producing nice sport horses. Not sure PA is close enough to CO for you

          http://www.pedigreequery.com/lyracist


          There are a lot of other great choices who are 50% blood too.
          Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; May. 5, 2011, 03:44 PM.
          ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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          • #6
            Blush is a beautiful girl! I also have a TB mare that I would like to breed someday for an eventer baby. Best of luck to you. Let us know what you decide!

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            • #7
              Lyracist is from the Alexander Mare tail female. Same tail female as Gainsborough, Teddy and Sea-Bird. The jump goes with that family, IMO.
              "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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              • #8
                Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                Lyracist is from the Alexander Mare tail female. Same tail female as Gainsborough, Teddy and Sea-Bird. The jump goes with that family, IMO.

                He's a tall leggy horse who does seem to be producing good moving/jumping offspring. I've see a few babies that look promising.

                He is on the tall side....which since I already have tall mares has been my only reluctance to use him.
                ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Thank you all for your ideas! Viney, I love your posts, and always seem to learn something from you--thank you for your input and I will sit with rapt attention should you like to expound on any additional TB pedigree info

                  I am really looking for a TB stallion or one that is nearly all TB, but I will keep the others in mind. I just really like Thoroughbreds, and if I had not been burned so badly purchasing OTT, I would go back there. I've not had good luck keeping off the track horses sound, and I'd really like to have a horse with a complete history.

                  I'd also like to make sure the foal is registerable somewhere. JC would be fantastic (although unlikely given where I live ) so an alternate option will be required. I think that rules out Aberjack, and I suspect that Lyracist does not ship, as he appears to be marketed for race?

                  Various test matings:

                  To Thoroughbreds:

                  A Fine Romance

                  Triple Twist

                  Sea Accounts (Viney, what do you think of that 5x5 Ribot?)

                  Innkeeper

                  Lyracist

                  Prince Amilius (I know absolutely nothing about this horse, but found him on the TB Times stallion register and his pedigree looked interesting. If he is still owned by the same person, he may be less than a hour from me.)

                  To non-TB:

                  Mighty Magic

                  Edelweiss de Bonce

                  Aberjack

                  Formula One

                  Has Mighty Magic fallen out of favor? When I asked this same question here perhaps 3-4 years ago, he was mentioned several times. I'm surprised no one has recommended him again! he looks like a neat horse, but I'm really not sure if I would want to go the frozen route.

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                  • #10
                    Aberjack may be non-TB...but he really is just about all TB. (I have a daughter out of a TB mare by him).


                    Mighty Magic is a nice horse. He is not proven yet as a sire but I would keep him on your list. From what I've heard and read...he has a tendancy to add height. There are a few on the ground here in the USA now...and I'm sure there will be more in the coming years. I think since he was already on your list, no need to mention him again. His frozen is supposed to be good quality.


                    I would call on Lyracrist--I bet she does ship. He is owned by a vet (Dr. Bonnie Lemount) and she also stands a warmblood stallion. I'm pretty sure Lyracist is approved AWR. Her farm is called Mouse House Farm in Nottingham PA. If you can't find contact information, send me a pm--I can get it for you. Tara Ziegler rides a bunch of horses for her. I've seen her out and about on a couple of LOVELY youngsters (4-5 year olds) by Bonnie's WB stallion (Costner) out of TB mares. One in particular looks like a really nice UL event horse prospect. If you went non-TB, he may be one to look at as well.

                    ETA: Here is a bit on Mouse House Farm http://warmbloodnews.com/archives/07...Newsletter.pdf
                    Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; May. 5, 2011, 05:37 PM.
                    ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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                    • #11
                      You're in Colorado; he's in Colorado. At least do some research on what he throws and go meet Oliver's Twist in person. For JC and live cover, his paper is good, very good for sport.

                      You'd still double and triple Nasrullah, but the number of crosses is much less intense; and you'd still have a sex balanced Princequillo top and bottom cross.
                      http://www.pedigreequery.com/olivers+twist
                      Tail female is to Vaila/Padua. Vaila is the granddam of both Blue Larkspur and Relic, and Padua is the tail female line for RAN. All those boys passed on the jump and are well established in sport horse land. O

                      Oliver's Twist has two very active LL event horses in the USEF database that seem to be doing well--not sterling, but well. Do a horse search using the sire search feature, then do a results search on the listed get. Then go from there to the owners or riders if you're interested. I'm betting both of these horses are OTTBs.

                      If you know of some reason or reasons why this guy would be unsuitable for sport/eventing breeding as opposed to OTTB acquisition, please let me know by PM so I can make a note.

                      If I were you and breeding for myself, and not really caring if the foal were 4* quality--but 2* would be a nice goal--and I didn't care about frozen and I didn't care about color and could get the semen, I'd look at Upton's Deli Circus in the UK, who is famous for an easy, peasy disposition. You'd still get a Bold Ruler double and a Princequillo Sex balanced top and bottom double, but it would come with Shaab and Busted. He's full TB on top, and at least partly TB on the bottom, and lacks neither bone nor foot.
                      Last edited by vineyridge; May. 5, 2011, 11:42 PM.
                      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                      Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                      • #12
                        If you don't mind using frozen semen (as you live in a area with a number of good repro vets, it shouldn't be a problem at all), you might consider the Australian-bred TB Heroicity.

                        Heroicity won $1M on the track then went on to sire numerous good eventers, jumpers, and steeplechasers. In his late teens, he came to the US to stand at Hilltop and got his WB approvals, including from the German Hanoverian Verband.

                        This is Heroicity winning a Gr 1 race at age 3.

                        Heroicity passes on a great temperament and lots of jump (he's a grandson of Caro). I have a 5 year-old TB mare by him who's about to start her eventing career. Bruce Davidson also has a 5 year-old mare, who's a little more advanced than mine (), Here's Lola.

                        My mare is very good-natured and easy to work with but also has a lot of go.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The thread on the eventing board about potential boyfriends for JERs new mare brought Jaguar Mail to my attention... he's a 3/4 bred. Hilltop also has Alligator Fontaine who is 1/2 TB. I like them both for a TB or mostly TB mare... but they are both 17handers so that might add too much in the height range.

                          My greenie is an AFR baby out of an Abdullah mare, and so far I can't say enough good things about her, so he definitely has my vote as a full TB stallion.

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                          • #14
                            I'm a BIG fan of Salute The Truth Pedigree. He is a TB, eventing Advanced, they do collection as well as LC(TBs only I believe). He is 17h tho

                            LBR
                            I reject your reality, and substitute my own- Adam Savage

                            R.I.P Ron Smith, you'll be greatly missed

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                            • #15
                              http://watermark-farm.net/avebury.html
                              http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=302757
                              Avebury is 59% TB /currently eventing and moving up nicely with Ryan Wood
                              Providence Farm
                              http://providencefarmpintos.blogspot.com/

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                              • #16
                                Think about Windfall if you want an eventer with lots of TB blood.

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                                • #17
                                  For that matter, Majestic Gaits has Navarone who had a son at Badminton last month. Horse didn't finish, but just getting there is an achievement. Navarone is 60% blood. But I wouldn't call him TB or nearly all TB. He's a mishmash of SF and KWPN and HOL and AA and has no TB per se close up. Just lots of Arab and TB from other crosses in his pedigree.

                                  Honestly, simkie, it seems to me that what you are breeding for is the crux of that matter. If you are hoping to produce a 4* horse for a professional to ride, your universe of possible stallions is limited in one direction. If you're looking for a life partner for yourself and you have no UL or Team aspirations, your universe is limited in another direction. But regardless of your aspirations, you want and need both the eventer brain and heart for safety--only for you you'd need more brain and less heart, while a pro might need less brain and more heart. TBs tend to excel at both.

                                  I will say that there are more Aberjacks listed as currently competing eventers with the USEF than any other stallion that I've found, and a comparatively high percentage have FEI Passports. He's 7/8ths TB.

                                  For an eventing bred TB stallion to consider, there's Cor Magnifique in Georgia who was bred by Mrs. Gosch (purpose bred eventing TBs) from her Bally Cor mare. He's standing at Team Wallace, and his current owner has posted here in the past.

                                  As long as we are talking size, Triple Twist, like many of the Twist line horses, is not all that big. I'd guess that 16.2 would be the TOP of the Twist line size range.

                                  Another stallion who has had top quality Young Horse eventing get is Knock Wood at Newsprint Farm. He stood in New Zealand with Greg Best and sired one national YEH champion and a reserve, IIRC. He also sired their 6yo Jumper Champion. Then he came home to the USA. He's 1/2 TB on the bottom and SF (heavy TB influence) on top, and he's Twist on the bottom--out of Gem Twist's full sister.

                                  With Blush, you're starting in a good place for eventing, because you already have your Wild Risk in place, through the beautifully bred for sport Runaway Bride. Can't do any better than her. Wild Risk is Rialto (sire of Sif as well) out of the Blandford daughter Wild Violet whose dam was a Ksar daughter, and he's a staple line for high level sport. Aimee is by Tudor Minstrel who might be the best TB line for movement ever and she's out of Emali (Umidwar x Eclair), the dam of Aberali and half sister of Khaled.

                                  Gotta say, though, that on paper at least, she and Oliver's Twist look good together.



                                  Originally posted by camohn View Post
                                  http://watermark-farm.net/avebury.html
                                  http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=302757
                                  Avebury is 59% TB /currently eventing and moving up nicely with Ryan Wood
                                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Wow, didn't Oliver's Twist used to have a MUCH higher stud fee? I thought he used to be in the $10k range, but maybe I'm confusing him with another horse. I will definitely go look at him, and see if I can't get in touch with the people who are eventing his get!

                                    Any options on this guy? Prince Amilius. I know nothing about him and haven't been able to find a picture online, but he's also local and seems to have an interesting pedigree?

                                    The point about what, exactly, am I breeding for is a good one. I don't need a 4* horse, but I DO want to produce something that is only limited by my skills, rather than being limited by it's conformation or it's mind or it's soundness. I'd like a horse that challenges me to step up and be a better rider and continue to expand my skill set, while still being fun to ride and not dangerous. I far prefer a "go" horse over a "push" horse. I want a horse that's versatile enough to event, trail ride and hold it's own in the dressage ring. I just want a fun, talented, forward horse that makes ME work to get it right. I like quirky and challenging, I do NOT want dangerous or crazy.

                                    I really, truly love the off the track thoroughbreds I've worked with and I would go back there in a heartbeat, but Blush's neck issues have been incredibly frustrating and expensive to diagnose. I thought I'd covered my ass by vetting her thoroughly before the purchase, but still got burned. I figure if I breed my own, at least I have a history.

                                    Thank you all for the wonderful, beautiful stallions you have posted here! I am eager to hear about any others you may think would be a good fit, and I'm excited that there may be a TB standing in CO that could fit the bill!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Honestly...for what you want, you could really go in any direction.

                                      I LOVE a forward ride. I hate the kick and go sort of horse. I currently have 4 horses in work undersaddle. The most forward ride I own is my full warmblood mare (imported from Germany). Second is my TB mare...then my TB/WB gelding (related to the TB mare) and LAST and the least forward is my OTTB.


                                      Warmblood mare's pedigree:
                                      http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/whizzo2

                                      Now she does have TB in her pedigree...but not anywhere near 80+%......Yet she is a MUCH more forward ride than my little OTTB who had 23 starts--and even more forward than my TB mare. I love riding her...she is an absolute blast. I've ridden TBs (both sport bred and OTTBs) most of my life...riding this mare has really opened my eyes about forward rides and made me realize that I can get that great feel from other breeds too.

                                      Full TB will not always get you a forward ride.

                                      When breeding for eventing for the UL, the reason we want so much TB blood is NOT really for the go button....it is for the mechanics of the gallop. You want the ground covering efficient gallop.

                                      Some warmbloods have it...some don't...and unless they are a warmblood bred for eventing, it isn't a trait most WB registies have as a high priority. Unfortunately, with the direction of the American TB industry favoring the sprinters...not all TBs have it either....so you still have to be careful in looking at TBs. The good gallop is one of the key traits we have to breed for with an eventer....as well as heart, mind, soundness, good mover and good jump!


                                      I think with your TB mare, you could really go in any direction and still get a forward ride. Just research the lines and the breed that you are interested in and make sure that is a trait they are known for and throw.

                                      Sorry...I know giving you more choices doesn't really help
                                      ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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                                      • #20
                                        Pedigree of Prince Amilius IS interesting. All sorts of relatives of famous horses. For instance, Stardust was the sire of Star Kingdom. Pluck is somewhere in AFR's pedigree. Madijeh was the dam of Gallant Man. Risque Reigh is in the pedigrees of two horses in Dr. Birdsall though a son and daughter, but not this daughter. Owen Tudor was the sire of Tudor Minstrel.

                                        A full sister of Princess Pluck was Blue Brigetta, a TB mare who was bred to a KWPN stallion, Brilliant, by Michael Poulin for a dressage horse. They got one; its name is/was Brilliant Too, and he went to the Pan-Am games in 2007 in dressage with their daughter. Dunno what's happened to him since. Just based on that, I'd say Prince Amilius is worth an onsite visit! Both Princess Pluck and Blue Brigetta were Colorado bred TBs by different breeders, so the family would seem to be very local indeed for at least two generations.
                                        Last edited by vineyridge; May. 6, 2011, 10:54 PM.
                                        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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