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Okay color experts, got a good one for you...what color is she?

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  • Okay color experts, got a good one for you...what color is she?

    My daughter's yearling filly is truly a horse of a different color. She is a large pony out of a pony mare that is 3/4 Welsh sect A and 1/4 Arabian. The dam is bay with some roaning (rabicano) and is sabino. The sire is Misty Mountain Brymor who is a Welsh Cob and is a cremello. We wanted a palomino or bucksin and well here she is. She looks grey to me. She has loads of actual gray hair in mane and tail. She has a chocolatey color from her belly on down to her legs. Her muzzle is chocolatey too. It looks like there is some other modifier gene thing going on, but stallion owner said he doesn't carry the silver gene. Dam sure doesn't appear to have it and really doesn't even look like a dark buckskin to me. She looks plain bay. I will post pics of them too, but here she is. She is body clipped so is probably a bit lighter than she will be, but still no sign of palomino color.





    www.lazyjsporthorses.com
  • Original Poster

    #2
    Okay here is pics of dad and mom and one of mom and her as a weanling. She was a bit darker then.





    www.lazyjsporthorses.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Any other pictures of dad? Mom could be buckskin but looks bay to me. Would you mind if I posted them on another site that has some incredibly knowledgeable people on it?
      Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
      http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Without worrying about picture copy rights, here is a link to his actual website http://www.cremellocob.com/

        Leah, I hope you don't mind, I love Bryn and this was an amazing cross, but would love to know her actual color. I submitted her registry to The Welsh and Cob Society and it is pending because they don't believe she is a palomino. She was also presented and branded at RPSI, but they did list her as a palomino. So, I may have to do DNA testing to prove her color for the Welsh registry.

        Riddle, feel free to ask/post anywhere. I am truly stumped.
        www.lazyjsporthorses.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Mom could be silver. They dont dilute much in horses. Can barely tell in horses actually.
          Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
          http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

          Comment


          • #6
            She looks almost identical in color to a stallion I use to own. He was born palomino but went grey.

            As a yearling he developed the exact same liver coloration on his lower legs and hindquarters. He was a different color every year. Unfortunately I don't have any scanned pics of my stallion in his younger years. He was out of a light palomino mare and a black based grey stallion.

            I've seen another palomino/gray with the same liver mottling as well. I think gray has a tendency to darken up dilutes prior to making them go white.


            http://share.shutterfly.com/action/p...8AcNnDdu5cOGFX

            http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com...o-g154714.html

            http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com...o-g154715.html

            Sire could be cremello and gray. May be hard to see gray on a cremello. Does the sire have any other gray foals on the ground from non-gray mares?
            We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson

            Comment


            • #7
              Dad looks WAY too creamy IMO to be gray
              Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
              http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Beautiful boy Talia. But there is no gray gene with either parent. I asked the breeder and he is a true double dilute with no gray parents. Maybe Leah can chime in, I forget what color his parents were.

                Riddle, is it possible to test for the silver gene? I am willing to do whatever DNA tests are available to get her registration completed.
                www.lazyjsporthorses.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  She really does LOOK palomino turning gray but I don't see any parents with gray so????
                  Providence Farm
                  http://providencefarmpintos.blogspot.com/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yes I beleive you can.

                    Here is the website I would use. Your money goes towards more research so thats always a plus http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse.php
                    Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                    http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by camohn View Post
                      She really does LOOK palomino turning gray but I don't see any parents with gray so????
                      She does and neither parent has gray. Any chance something got mixed up??? Has she been DNA verified?
                      Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                      http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ljshorses View Post
                        Beautiful boy Talia. But there is no gray gene with either parent. I asked the breeder and he is a true double dilute with no gray parents. Maybe Leah can chime in, I forget what color his parents were.

                        Riddle, is it possible to test for the silver gene? I am willing to do whatever DNA tests are available to get her registration completed.
                        Thank you. He was a horse of a different color as well!

                        There is a test for silver. I would be surprised if she is silver though. Silver & cream have a tendency to cancel each other out, and the horse usually has a self colored mane as a result. I do know that's not always the case with minis though so it may be different in Welsh's too.

                        Here's my silver buckskin mare. DNA confirmed to carry both silver and cream. (I do believe she is probably brown based though. Her base coat is darker then most silver buckskins.)

                        http://share.shutterfly.com/action/p...8AcNnDdu5cOGF1

                        The darker horse is her silver black daughter.

                        There's a lot of information on silver traits here too:

                        http://www.silverequine.com/index2.htm

                        In addition, I had my DNA tests done here:

                        http://www.horsetesting.com/Equine.htm

                        The tests are only $25 a piece. The most reasonable around. I had the results emailed to me in only two weeks.
                        We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Sire: Cremello (Palomino x Palomino)
                          If he were greying out, I'd expect to see evidence of grey in 1 or 2 generations of ancestors. I don't see any grey. Phenotypically, I'd expect his blaze to be invisible if he were greying out.

                          Dam: Bay (? x ?)
                          We know the dam is not contributing grey because she is very, very obviously not grey. Whether or not she is buckskin because Mirengue is quite clearly not double-dilute.

                          The photos of Mirengue as a young foal show her to be a "standard" palomino color with unusual hyper-shading (darker below). I would have called her a "sooty palomino" as a foal. If you go to http://colormorgans.tripod.com/palomino.htm and read the first paragraph: "Palominos have a white mane and tail, although on very dark palominos, the sooty gene causes dark, silvery gray hairs to appear in the mane and tail."
                          There are examples on the page, as Morgans are often sooty. In fact, the horse Ancan True Colors is quite similar to Mirengue as a foal.
                          And, as any number of very chestnut-looking palomino foals can attest to, palomino babies often lighten considerably with age.

                          She is perfectly palomino, just sooty.
                          Disclaimer: My mom told me that people might look at my name and think I had an addiction other than horses. I don't; his name was Bravado.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            That foal is NOT sooty palomino THIS is a sooty palomino. http://forums.ablackhorse.com/upload...4_566_2568.jpg Sooty does not make a palomino WHITER it makes them darker.
                            Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                            http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              to add further confusion, here's a pic of a "buttermilk" buckskin:

                              http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/ima...ckskinpale.jpg

                              (sire: cremello, dam: bay)
                              "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

                              My CANTER blog.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by RiddleMeThis View Post
                                She does and neither parent has gray. Any chance something got mixed up??? Has she been DNA verified?
                                That was my thought exactly. I really think she is gray.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by caffeinated View Post
                                  to add further confusion, here's a pic of a "buttermilk" buckskin:

                                  http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/ima...ckskinpale.jpg

                                  (sire: cremello, dam: bay)
                                  YEp amazing buckskin with frosting plus wild bay.
                                  Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                                  http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I really don't think this filly is going grey unless there was a mix up in semen. Her mom is very obviously not grey, and did not have a grey parent. And I know that cremello can hide the grey gene to an extent, but I'm not aware of any of his other foals being grey (a darker buckskin or palimino would show this correct?)

                                    Wouldn't the silver dapple be noticable? Could the stallion have that?
                                    ---------------------------

                                    ~Once you have ridden the tiger it is impossible to dismount~

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by mistyjewell View Post
                                      And I know that cremello can hide the grey gene to an extent
                                      I don't think it could- even if cremello, if he had the grey gene he'd be grey himself- he doesn't look grey in the pics...

                                      Weird. Is there such a thing as a "buttermilk palomino?" Because she looks kinda like the buckskin I posted, except with the light mane and tail. I think I'd spring for genetic testing on this one...

                                      ok.. did some googling, and found some horses referred to as "buttermilk palominos" that look a LOT like the OP's horse.

                                      http://horsetopia.horse-for-sale.org...fieds/ad257897

                                      http://www.tuscanlodgeminiatures.com...res_oracle.jpg

                                      http://www.miniaturehorsesdownunder....tand_1_sml.jpg

                                      (seeing a bunch of miniature horses registered as palominos who are that really light color)

                                      further googling (forgive me, I'm looking and posting at the same time) finds that really, really light palominos are referred to as "isabella" palomino

                                      http://www.lusitanoslosmejores.com/s...na06mar24a.jpg

                                      http://www.dakotawindsfarm.com/Gelding-Binger.htm

                                      http://www.wikihow.com/images/6/6a/SSA42117.JPG (the mare in the photo is referred to as isabella)
                                      "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

                                      My CANTER blog.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by caffeinated View Post
                                        I don't think it could- even if cremello, if he had the grey gene he'd be grey himself- he doesn't look grey in the pics...
                                        Cremello can hide to the extent that you cant tell because the horse is so light. The horse IS gray, you just cant tell.
                                        Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                                        http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                                        Comment

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