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Linebreeding Fans: Sir Gregory

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  • Linebreeding Fans: Sir Gregory

    Just browsing Dreamscape Farm's website.

    Quite impressed with their young stallion Sir Gregory in terms of conformation and movement. Then looked at his pedigree.

    Pretty heavily linebred. Donnerhall 3 x2 plus SG's dam (Premiere) is a result of a half-sib to half-sib breeding!

    BOth her sire (Don Gregory) and her dam (Pandora) are o/o the mare Granete.

    Don't usually see this sort of linebreeding in warmbloods and I found it very interesting.

    Any info on Granete? They must have thought very highly of her to try this, and apparently it worked out well. Not only has she produced Premiere, but Premiere herself has produced multiple SPS mares and, of course, an approved stallion.

    BTW, anyone seen Sir Greg. in person? Love to hear feedback.

  • #2
    I researched Sir Gregory a lot (bred to him last year for a 2011 foal). I had not been able to find much on Granate, outside of the fact that she produced Don Gregory plus some other offspring.

    I also thought that the breeder must have felt very highly of her to breed Premiere, who is line bred to Granate.

    FWIW, Premiere has actually produced 3 licensed stallions. Sir Gregory, Don Romeo and a 2008 Sandro Hit stallion that sold for about 80,000 Euros last year at GOV licensing

    Don Romeo is on this website (also linebred to Donnerhall and Granate like SG)
    http://www.reitstallkruse.de/pferde/deckhengst2.htm
    Last edited by Edgewood; Apr. 16, 2011, 11:04 PM.
    Kris
    www.edgewoodmeadowfarm.com
    Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/edgewoodmeadowfarm

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    • Original Poster

      #3
      Originally posted by Edgewood View Post
      I researched Sir Gregory a lot (bred to him last year for a 2011 foal). I had not been able to find much on Granate, outside of the fact that she produced Don Gregory plus some other offspring.

      I also thought that the breeder must have felt very highly of her to bred Premiere, who is line bred to Granate.

      FWIW, Premiere has actually produced 3 licensed stallions. Sir Gregory, Don Romeo and a 2008 Sandro Hit stallion that sold for about 80,000 Euros last year at GOV licensing

      Don Romeo is on this website (also linebred to Donnerhall and Granate like SG)
      http://www.reitstallkruse.de/pferde/deckhengst2.htm
      Really? They didn't mention this on the Dreamscape site, just the SPS mares she has produced. So that linebreeding thing really paid off for them.

      When is your foal due? What sort of mare did you breed to him?

      I have my stallions bought and paid for this year, but really am considering him for 2012. I like alot about him and his pedigree is very strong.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
        Really? They didn't mention this on the Dreamscape site, just the SPS mares she has produced. So that linebreeding thing really paid off for them.

        When is your foal due? What sort of mare did you breed to him?

        I have my stallions bought and paid for this year, but really am considering him for 2012. I like alot about him and his pedigree is very strong.
        I emailed Jennifer last fall about Don Romeo, I came across him by googling Premiere with her DE registration #. Jennifer didn't know about him at the time. The SH - Premiere son just was licensed in the fall 2010, so she probably hasn't updated her website yet. I downloaded his GOV licensing PDF document if you are interested, I could email it to you.

        I have a leased Rio Grande - Rollicking xx mare bred to him that is due in about 3-4 weeks. Her owner was riding at the barn in Germany where SG was trained before importation and really loved him. So I was already thinking of breeding to him when she offered me the lease.

        He is a really lovely stallion and both my friend, who rides successfully at GP, and Holly Simenson had very good comments regarding Sir Gregory.
        Kris
        www.edgewoodmeadowfarm.com
        Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/edgewoodmeadowfarm

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        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by Edgewood View Post
          I emailed Jennifer last fall about Don Romeo, I came across him by googling Premiere with her DE registration #. Jennifer didn't know about him at the time. The SH - Premiere son just was licensed in the fall 2010, so she probably hasn't updated her website yet. I downloaded his GOV licensing PDF document if you are interested, I could email it to you.

          I have a leased Rio Grande - Rollicking xx mare bred to him that is due in about 3-4 weeks. Her owner was riding at the barn in Germany where SG was trained before importation and really loved him. So I was already thinking of breeding to him when she offered me the lease.

          He is a really lovely stallion and both my friend, who rides successfully at GP, and Holly Simenson had very good comments regarding Sir Gregory.
          Interesting choice for him. Are you breeding for jumping or dressage?

          I have 2 mares (half-sibs) that I would consider for him. Both are o/o a Batido (Bolero) mare. One is by Weltmeyer and one is by Rubino Bellisamo (Rubinstein). Both look like he would fit phenotypically.

          Yes, I would love to see Premiere's info. I'll PM you with my email addie.

          DO keep me posted on the foal -- in fact, if you have any pics of your mare I'd love to see them.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post

            DO keep me posted on the foal -- in fact, if you have any pics of your mare I'd love to see them.
            For the Rio Grande mare, I am hoping for a nice dressage horse that also has good jumping skills. She had lovely Rousseau and Soprano foals already. And also, many Oldenburg breeders seem to infuse a fair amount on good moving jumper blood.

            But, FWIW, I initially inquired of my friend in Germany for a dressage bred mare (would have line bred to G line, Graphit) to Sir Gregory. But when my friend offered the lease on her mare, I took her up on it, since this mare had proven foals on the ground whereas my mare is a maiden, so I went with a more proven stallion (Royal Prince).

            The mares are here:
            http://mysite.verizon.net/vze85onr/our_mares.html

            Rio Grande mare is Razzle Dazzle and the one I will probably breed to Sir Gregory eventually, but decided on Royal Prince for now, is Panache.
            Kris
            www.edgewoodmeadowfarm.com
            Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/edgewoodmeadowfarm

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            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by Edgewood View Post
              Rio Grande mare is Razzle Dazzle and the one I will probably breed to Sir Gregory eventually, but decided on Royal Prince for now, is Panache.
              I see Razzle Dazzle has Roberto up close!

              Love him and another fine example of linebreeding.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
                I see Razzle Dazzle has Roberto up close!

                Love him and another fine example of linebreeding.
                Yes, very interesting linebreeding on Roberto, especially to the mares Plucky Liege (x3) through her sons Bull Dog, Sir Gallahad, and Admiral Drake and Mumtaz Begum through Nearco and a daughter. And then of course to Nearco and Blue Larkspur.
                Kris
                www.edgewoodmeadowfarm.com
                Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/edgewoodmeadowfarm

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                • #9
                  Premiere is actually inbred, since her sire and dam had the same mother (Granate).

                  And she was apparently linebred only twice to Donnerhall - results were the 2004 stallion Don Romio (Don Romantic) and the 2005 stallion Sir Gregory (Sir Donnerhall I).

                  Paardenfokken doesn't list the the year of birth for her two fillies, but they were both sired by Sandro Hit, as was the 2008 unnamed stallion. I am wondering they were born in 2006 and 2007, or if they are more recent models. Also wonder if she is still producing - she is 17 y/o this year.

                  As for Sir Gregory - I have also heard from numerous sources that he is a REALLY good stallion, and should produce very nicely given his own excellent physical and mental attributes and his very strong genotype.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'm breeding my 4 yr old Balta Czar mare to him next month. Love him! From what I've seen so far, he has some very nice offspring-

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                      Premiere is actually inbred, since her sire and dam had the same mother (Granate).
                      Well, you know what they say: it's linebreeding when it works and inbreeding when it doesn't!

                      No one has ever actually given me a definite separation between the two. What if it's grandsire to grandaughter - is that linebreeding or inbreeding. Where is the line drawn?

                      Either way, this seems to have worked great in the case of both Premiere and SG. Lovely horses and, in the case of Premiere (and her dam) obviously top class producers.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        There was obviously something known about the mare Granate that prompted the breeder to breed this closely. She must have been known to have some extremely remarkable, highly desirable traits. Inbreeding that closely makes certain genes more available to passing on to future offspring, thus increasing the incidence of desired genes to be passed on to the future foal - in this case, the mare, Premiere. And this is exactly what happened, since Premiere is an awarded mare.

                        Sir Gregory is a remarkable stallion. He has some pretty lovely foals on the ground in Europe and a few have been born already in North America just this spring. We will be breeding to him this spring.

                        You could inbreed once and get, say, a filly. That filly would then have to be outcrossed to a stallion that had very few of the same genetics as she contained. You would not want, for example, to breed your inbred filly to a stallion who was also inbred with the same family line. That's drawing the line and risking some really weird defects.

                        You could use a stallion who might be inbred to a different family line if you really happened to like the traits of that family. But most breeders don't even do this. Your resultant foal would be inbred once on top to Family A and inbred once on the bottom to Family B. From there, you would have little choice but to outcross to an entirely different family for the grandfoal. Too much inbreeding is linebreeding gone awry. Inbreeding is when a horse is doubled up within the 1st generation, i.e. a stallion and mare bred together who were both sired by the same stallion, or who were both born of the same mare. Pandora and DonGregory are out of the same mare (Granate). There is little new blood in this pairing. Thus Premiere carried 50% blood of Granate and her other 50% came from other sources. That's pretty dense.

                        It's line breeding if 2 or more generations back there is a repeated name.
                        Sir Gregory has Donnerhall appearing once on top and once on bottom, but 3 generations back. There is a hefty mix of fresh genes to add to the Donnerhall genes.

                        Interestingly if you look up Sir Gregory's blood mix, even though he was linebred to Donnerhall, and inbred with Granate (and thus inbred with Graphit), he interestingly is calculated to carry 25% blood of Donnerhall, 12.5% of Graphit, 12.5% of the mare Aufnahme, and 3% of Ramiro. His father line is family #1702 which is Darley Arabian. His mother line is incompletely known but listed as the Morgenstrahl mare. He has an ancestor loss of only 23-31% ... this means he has a strong ability to pass on the highly desired Donnerhall-Graphit family traits.

                        When you're breeding a mare to him, it is because you REALLY like Graphit and you REALLY like Donnerhall. Because you're going to get a foal with those general familyline traits.
                        Last edited by rodawn; Apr. 17, 2011, 12:22 PM.
                        Practice! Patience! Persistence!
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                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by rodawn View Post
                          There was obviously something known about the mare Granate that prompted the breeder to breed this closely. She must have been known to have some extremely remarkable, highly desirable traits.
                          Yes, Edgewood and I were discussing this. Unfortunately neither of us have been able to find out much about Granate. Since this sort of cross is rare in WB breeding (not so much in Arabian or even TBs), this was a big risk for the breeder to take and really thinking outside the box.

                          I would LOVE to hear more about Granate or find a pic. How would we go about doing that? Any way to track down her Reg.#?

                          As for "the next step" with a mare bred this close, an outcross can produce great, but I've also known many fine horses that trace back to one or two horses MANY times. Mostly (again) in the Arab breed...I had Arab mares with something like 20 crosses to horses like Abu Farwa & such. And they did this by going "back to the well" over and over again.

                          My "main" Arab mare has 3 crosses to Bask+++ in 4-5 generations, and I would not hesitate to cross her to a double bred-Bask stallion if he suited her phenotypically and was a sound, well-formed animal. In fact, I would do that rather than go to a total outcross in many cases. Bask+++ is proven to produce very, VERY tough, sound performance horses -- you can't kill 'em, although you might WANT to! They can be really spicy, but once you have that working for you, it's golden.

                          Back on track - I am so pleased to be hearing all these good things about SG. He's definitely on my short list for '12.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Sir Gregory impressed me from the first time I saw his video. That he is performing successfully in the show ring is even better! I'll get to see one of his offspring first-hand when my Ster KWPN-NA Idocus x Wanroij mare foals in June.
                            Martha Haley - NeverSayNever Farm
                            2009 KWN-NA Breeder of the Year/Silver Level Breeder
                            www.angelfire.com/ns2/our_horses/
                            https://www.facebook.com/pages/Never...01844536521951

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                            • #15
                              I can't find too much on Granate herself, but I can tell you a few things about some of the members of her family, who made her who she was.

                              Her grandfather, the stallion, Grande, produced a highly remarkable number of offspring who went to international Grand Prix Dressage and Show Jumping ring. In the 2000 Olympics, 6 of his grandkids were in the medals in the dressage ring alone. In 2004, I counted at least 4 of grandkids in the Olympic Dressage ring and I believe 3 of those medalled. The Elite Mare, Brentina, is a great-granddaughter of Grande. He, himself, was a performer. I only have pictures of him after he retired and he was quite fat and not looking very handsome at all, but he outproduced himself many times over. He descends from the great Goldschlagger who basically revolutionized the G-line. Goldschlagger was responsible for producing the Graf lineage, who went on to produce huge jumping and dressage stars. His grandson, Grande, looked like a jumper, but produced equally talented dressage horses as well. This line was known for it's big neck, round body shape, superior temperament and rideability.

                              Then you get Duellant. He was famous for his HUGE ground-covering trot, exceptional expression. Duellant produced exceptional states premium mares, but really became known for producing stallions - he sired (at least) 42 of them and ALL of them were great - Duft, Duden, Dezember, Derby, just to name a very few. He sired the highly awarded state premium mare, Duellfest, who was Grande's mother.

                              The stallion, Fling, is in Granate's pedigree. He is named as one of the 12 elite foundational influential stallions used by the CWHBA in their identification process of proving warmbloods as a distinct breed in Canada. Fling was an exceptionally handsome horse of his day and known for temperament, movement, athletic abilities, and for producing many, many state premium mares, and elite stallions, the most famous one being Feiner Kerl, as well as Flugfuer I, II, and Flintenstein I, II, and III. Fling carries grandpa stallion, King twice - once in his sireline and once in his damline to bring in some TB influence (he was 1/2 TB, sired by TB stallion, Kingdom). And at this point, we're getting so far back there's nothing for information and only hand-drawings for pictures. Great mares of distinction back then were named after their farm - Morgenstrahl Mare, Hanlon Mare, Norfolk Mare, etc. And these particular 3 great mares are in Granate's lineage.

                              Fling and F-line began the famous W line of today - Weltmeyer and kind.

                              Interesting note: The Elite Mare, Brentina, also carries Fling's blood through Feiner Kerl twice because Grande has Fling on top and bottom of his pedigree.

                              So this is an extraordinary family tree which carries a heavy propensity to pass on the same certain gifted traits time and time again in rather reliable fashion. Donnerhall was merely the product of this exceptionally strong line that was carefully nutured in Germany for many generations as was thus Don Gregory. We see these traits in Sir Gregory - namely, big gaits, exceptional temperament, strong competitive nature, very athletic and dressage-talented. Of his foals that I've seen, they are stamped pretty much in line with D-line traits. And, from what I have seen, I would say the D, F and G line powerfully controls whatever influence the S line might have brought to the table, except perhaps that S add some lightness and blood.

                              It was a smart choice of the breeder of Sir Donnerhall to breed his powerful D-F line mare to Sandro Hit to produce SirD I and also SirDII. This influence improved the hindquarter a bit which Sandro Hit is a bit weak in. Then in turn, the owner of the inbred mare Premiere, knowing she had very dense, powerfully influential D and G lineage that she would most likely be the most overwhelming influence against any stallion she was bred to, in this case, Sir Donnerhall, which resulted in Sir Gregory. I would say, they're very correct. Smart breeding all around.

                              Horses like this are a gift to North America and we're very fortunate that the Arnold's were able to snatch him like they did. It's quite the coup.

                              It should also noted of one other very great and influential stallion is located in Sir Gregory's motherline and that is the Anglo-Arabian Stallion, Inschallah, who was enormously influential in athletic calibre, temperament, durability and addition of some refinement.
                              Practice! Patience! Persistence!
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                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by rodawn View Post
                                Thus Premiere carried 50% blood of Granate and her other 50% came from other sources. That's pretty dense.
                                Rodawn: first of all, thanks so much for your detailed information on Granate's pedigree in your post below. GREAT information.

                                But here is a question I've long wondered about in terms of linebreeding/inbreeding: if Granate was the actual dam of Premiere her blood would be just as "dense" (ie, 50%) and no one would worry about it. So why the issue this time?

                                My thought was always that linebreeding/inbreeding is not only used to intensify blood, but also to keep available the genetic package from a horse who may no longer be available.

                                So even if you have 30 crosses to a horse in a many generations, you may still only have 15-30% of his/her blood, which (to me) is not dangerous.

                                Again, I don't want to de-rail my own thread with an in-depth discussion of linebreeding, but it's a question I always wondered about.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Thanks for this fascinating discussion! My Dutch keur mare is in foal to Sir Gregory and due in June. It's great to learn so much more about his bloodlines. Can anyone find pictures of the mares? I'd particularly like to see Granate.
                                  Kendra -- Runningwater Warmbloods
                                  Home of EM Raleska (Rascalino/ Warkant) and Donatella M (Furstenball/ Jazz Time)
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                                  • #18
                                    I have a Sir Gregory foal due in a couple of weeks out of a Rambo mare. Really excited to see what baby is like!
                                    Cindy's Warmbloods
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                                    • #19
                                      Sir G

                                      I have a 16.1hh black/bay mare in foal to him and she may, may??? foal tonight but its only 327 days. She is T/B by Birdonthewire and she graded premium score with the GOV. She has amazing gaits, cadence, and is remarkably balanced in the canter. But, she has a big walk and exceptional trot, too with a quick and active hind leg. I am really hoping for something special. I like the line breeding in Sir G especially on an outcross such as my mare. We shall see in a few hours or days. I will post pics on this thread and the new foals as well as soon as I get my new foal.

                                      I agree he is a gift to North American breeders.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by rodawn View Post
                                        It should also noted of one other very great and influential stallion is located in Sir Gregory's motherline and that is the Anglo-Arabian Stallion, Inschallah, who was enormously influential in athletic calibre, temperament, durability and addition of some refinement.
                                        FWIW Inschallah and his most famous son Inschallah II were both know for their very difficult temperament and explosive sharpness. Even professionals were wary of horses by these two. If you got a good one they were exceptional but many of them were close to unrideable.

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