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Question about false heat? Update- its real heat and u/s result

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  • Question about false heat? Update- its real heat and u/s result

    Hi,
    I am trying to breed my mare by fresh cooled semen and my vet said to call her when I noticed the my mare go into heat. She went into heat Feb 14, March 14, and now today, April 1. I thought she would be more toward the middle of April. So I am wondering if maybe she is on false heat? Yesterday she rejected the gelding in the next pasture, but today she was all about him. She gave a few quiet squeals, squatted, peed, and winked and nickered. She was giving him kisses and letting him nip her. She turned around and pressed her butt up to the gate and did it all again. She did the whole routine 4 times in about 5-10 min, then wandered off for a while. Her typical behavior is to do that then come back in a while and do it again. So she acts like she is in heat, but she had always been a slut. My vet has not called me back yet, but from what I understand, most vets like to wait and breed on the third day of heat, so ordering the semen is not a must do for today. Just trying to get some feedback since I am a breeding noob. Thanks!
    Last edited by mpsbarnmanager; Apr. 1, 2011, 04:37 PM.
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  • #2
    Sounds like she is still transitional. Still relatively early in the breeding season if your mare has not been under lights. Good luck.
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    • #3
      If you last noticed her on March 14 than she should be showing heat now. She is right on schedule.
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      • Original Poster

        #4
        Thanks! I never thought to note how many days passed in between heat cycles in the 13 years I have owned the silly girl! Thanks! So would that mean that she should come into heat again in roughly 14-21 days? She has not been under lights, btw. Thanks again guys!
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        • #5
          Originally posted by mpsbarnmanager View Post
          Thanks! I never thought to note how many days passed in between heat cycles in the 13 years I have owned the silly girl! Thanks! So would that mean that she should come into heat again in roughly 14-21 days? She has not been under lights, btw. Thanks again guys!
          The average mare's cycle is 21 days from ovulation to ovulation. Typically, their heat cycle lasts from 5 to 7 days, depending on the mare. Ovulation occurs approximately 24 hours before the end of estrus display. So, if you count the days from the time the mare first shows signs of estrus, you should be 21 days.

          With transitional heats, until the mare ovulates, she will display estrus and may do so for literally weeks without truly ovulating. She may also show estrus for a few days, then none for a few days and then be displaying again. Until the first ovulation of the season, that can literally for weeks and weeks :P. Once the first ovulation occurs, she should be pretty much on that 21 days cycle.

          Good luck.
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          • Original Poster

            #6
            OK, just left meeting with vet

            Just left from meeting the vet. She did a rectal ultrasound and said that VG (my mare) had 3 folicles stacked on top of each other. I dont know what that means but she did not seem too concerned about it and I had the sense she was having a rough day and didnt want to ask her too many questions. She said that her dominant folicle was 34-35mm. Since today is friday she is coming back 8 am mon am to see where she is then. She said most mares will get up to a 55-60mm folicle before ovulating. She said since she my mare is a maiden she does not know if she will "be a superstar and ovulate really fast", but most mares take a few days and she would rather wait and see monday what was going on. Sound like a good plan to you all?? Thanks again!!!
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            • #7
              Originally posted by mpsbarnmanager View Post
              Just left from meeting the vet. She did a rectal ultrasound and said that VG (my mare) had 3 folicles stacked on top of each other. I dont know what that means but she did not seem too concerned about it and I had the sense she was having a rough day and didnt want to ask her too many questions. She said that her dominant folicle was 34-35mm. Since today is friday she is coming back 8 am mon am to see where she is then. She said most mares will get up to a 55-60mm folicle before ovulating. She said since she my mare is a maiden she does not know if she will "be a superstar and ovulate really fast", but most mares take a few days and she would rather wait and see monday what was going on. Sound like a good plan to you all?? Thanks again!!!
              Well, did she mention uterine edema or endometrial folds? If she has good uterine edema and you are planning on shipping semen I would order now with a dominant follicle of 34-35. We generally order on a 35 w/ good edema. I would also wonder if this is her first cycle of the year (i.e. if she is truly done with transition). If she hasn't ovulated yet this year, then this cycle will be anyone guess, as far as how it will go.
              Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
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              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by Hillside H Ranch View Post
                Well, did she mention uterine edema or endometrial folds? If she has good uterine edema and you are planning on shipping semen I would order now with a dominant follicle of 34-35. We generally order on a 35 w/ good edema. I would also wonder if this is her first cycle of the year (i.e. if she is truly done with transition). If she hasn't ovulated yet this year, then this cycle will be anyone guess, as far as how it will go.
                She did mention uterine edema but it was to say there was none yet. I had not come across that term in my reading so I am not sure what it means.
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                • #9
                  If there isn't any uterine edema at all then I would guess she still may be transitional. Generally when a mare is truly in heat, she will have a dominant follicle and uterine edema. Monday's ultrasound should give you a better idea of exactly what is going on. If I saw multiple follicles with no uterine edema I would not describe the mare as being in true heat, neccessarily.
                  Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
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                  • #10
                    Well.....

                    I have a mare that last year had little to no uterine edema, no 'pinwheeling' no fluid.
                    First time breeding her for me, and no ultra sound records from first breeding with her first foal the previous year.
                    She had a 32 follicle on Thursday evening. Both the Vet and I thought it was 'safe' to wait. When we inseminated her Sat morning she had ovulated... sometime during the night. Gurrrr
                    She didn't concieve on that breeding...so we short cycled her and next cycle exactly the same pattern.. She went from 32 to 40 in about 30 hours! Her foal is due in about 5 weeks...she is in foal to Banderas btw.
                    Just goes to show that mares do not read the text book. <smile>
                    Martha
                    Breeder of Quality and Colour
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                    • #11
                      Well, it is possible that she is going to ovulate on a small follicle, and isclose to ovulation. Usually mares lose most of their edema just before ovulation. However, with just one ultrasound it is difficult to say whether this mare is coming, going, or transitional .
                      Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
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                      • #12
                        Mare is a four letter word. I've had mares consume books, but never read them . ANY time of year with one ultrasound it's virtually impossible to know exactly what a mare is doing. You can make an educated guess by looking at all the landmarks and hoping the mare follows the norm. But, not all do. For example, anything larger than a 35mm follicle is considered a "breedable" follicle....except on a transitional mare. And, I had a HUGE Holsteiner mare that if I waited for a 35 mm follicle, I'd miss her every time...she'd ovulate on a 33 to 34 :O!!

                        Multiple, decent sized follicles and little to no edema would lead me to suspect that she may fool everyone and either ovulate....or not . Yeah, I LOVE this time of year! NOT!
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                        • #13
                          I have 2 mares that ovulate on a 19 day cycle.
                          One of them has almost no edema. The vets thought this wierd - and did not inseminate on her 1st cycle. Over the years, there has never been any more edema than a "2" on a scale of 1-4 - often just a "1". However, that is her norm, and that pattern is now established.
                          Also, I would not say that "most" mares go to a 55-60 mm follicle.
                          I have one who generally ovulates at 39-43 mm. A couple others may go 50-55 mm. All good sized mares.
                          There is wide variability between mares, and, with the same mare, variability in cycles from the 1st of the year through to late season.
                          In my experience, if I think a mare will ovulate, I like to have the semen available 2 days after a 34 mm follicle.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sunnydays View Post
                            I have 2 mares that ovulate on a 19 day cycle.
                            One of them has almost no edema. The vets thought this wierd - and did not inseminate on her 1st cycle. Over the years, there has never been any more edema than a "2" on a scale of 1-4 - often just a "1". However, that is her norm, and that pattern is now established.
                            Also, I would not say that "most" mares go to a 55-60 mm follicle.
                            I have one who generally ovulates at 39-43 mm. A couple others may go 50-55 mm. All good sized mares.
                            There is wide variability between mares, and, with the same mare, variability in cycles from the 1st of the year through to late season.
                            In my experience, if I think a mare will ovulate, I like to have the semen available 2 days after a 34 mm follicle.
                            Similar here...I have one mare who is on an 18 day cycle, it was very frustrating finding that out!! She would go from a 32mm to a 42mm in less then 48 hours...we learned to order the semen (when using fresh) when she was in the 32-36 range...AFTER about 3-4 MISSED ovulations and it worked like a charm!! ...very frustrating as mares are on their own time and way of going! She also didn't have a lot of edema either so it made it tricky to figure her out...it would be nice if all mares were text book that is for sure!!
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                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              **sigh**

                              Well, 3 ultrasounds later, she was still only had a 41mm follicle this morning. The vet said her edema is going down so she guessed there was a 30 percent chance she would not O. So we are going to short cycle her and I give her the shot next monday. I don't want to know what the 3 u/s will cost, but I know that's just part of the game. Just kinda bummed.
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                              • #16
                                Here edema SHOULD go down if she is going to ovulate.
                                Short cycling won't work until/unless she does ovulate, and then the shot needs to be given at least 5 days after ovulation.
                                Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
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                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Well, she (the vet) said the lutalyse (sp?) Should make her ovulate in 7 days. So I gess if she is going to ovulate she has 2 days to do it, huh? She said that she may or may not ovulate because she felt like with the slow follicle growth she may still be transitional and it was up to me weather to order the semen or not. Since she didn't sound very positive, I decided to wait until the odds were more in my favor. I also asked her is it would just be easier to wait until her next natural cycle, but she acted like the sooner we got her in foal the better. Thanks again for the thoughts!! Very helpful!!
                                  Last edited by mpsbarnmanager; Apr. 5, 2011, 04:12 PM.
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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by mpsbarnmanager View Post
                                    Well, she (the vet) said the lutalyse (sp?) Should make her ovulate in 7 days. Is that not always the case? Thanks again for the thoughts!! Very helpful!!
                                    Lutalyse does not induce ovulation. To induce ovulation you usually use something like HCG or deslorelin. Lutalyse causes the CL to lyse (the CL is the structure formed after an ovulation) and brings a mare back into heat.

                                    I'm a little confused why you all are scrapping this cycle? It sounds like she formed a follicle, it grew, there was edema, etc. If the follicle was greater than 35 and there WAS edema, then you could give HCG or deslorelin and breed the mare (or vice versa, depending upon preference). It just seems like you may be wasting this cycle for no reason?
                                    Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
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                                    • #19
                                      I agree, sounds like this was a good cycle and if you had semen you should put it in right now. Did she say if the follicle is soft or misshapen at all?

                                      We always give lutalyse on a Thursday to get rid of a CL and bring mare in. We check on Sunday night and plan the order for the week (we know our mares SO well), which is usually ordering Tues or Wed. Then we normally give HCG and most have ovulated by Thursday or Friday, so maybe the vet was saying with Lutalyse they may ovulate at around 7 days after the shot? I have heard 7 to 9 which seems to prove accurate.

                                      The slow follicle growth could very well be due to cool weather and that we're still a little early in the natural breeding season. In the summer they go much quicker...

                                      But, yeah, sounds like this was a good heat. Edema will peak at about 36-48 hours from ovulation and begin to wane as ovulation draws near. Some of our mares never get super crazy edema and some do, but they always lose it before they go.

                                      I see you are in SE VA, so are we (well we are just over the line into NC) - we have the best repro vet on earth (I'm biased ) so I can give you her name if you want!
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                                      • #20
                                        I agree that it sounds like this might be a normal heat cycle. If your vet is determined to short cycle please ask her about the 2 small doses of lutalyse instead of the one 2cc injection. A lot easier on your mare.
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