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Stallion suggestions for KWPN Elite Sport mare.

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  • Stallion suggestions for KWPN Elite Sport mare.

    I am looking for a stallion that will not only cross with this mare for a great foal, but something that will be highly saleable for a good price.
    The mare is Reg. KWPN. She is an Elite (Keur and PROK), Sport mare (met the show results requirement at 3rd level). She was the 2nd highest mare in her year for conformation scores at her Keuring as a 3 year old. She will show 4th level this year, as a 9 year old. Her sire is (VDL) Orame, Dam is Ster mare by Idocus. The only things I would improve on this mare is more reach in the front leg (she is a good mover but you can always have more), and since she can be a bit of a chestnut mare at times I want a stallion known for easy temperaments. She is a medium build about 16.3 hh, chestnut with lots of chrome.
    I am leaning towards a KWPN stallion, such as 007 or Johnson, but am open to Hanoverian stallions as well. I will be using frozen. Who would you choose.....????

  • #2
    Not a dressage person, but if you are ok with a chestunt I really like 007 and from what the judges have mentioned to me he is consistently improving front ends.
    Proudly producing TOP scoring foals in North America
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    • #3
      I have ridden a couple of 007's (bred by Windy Ridge Farm) and they were so nice! Not only did they have exceptional movement, but also very good balance and excellent temperaments. They are really free in the shoulder. A kid (like 11 or 12 years old) owned the one, a 3 year old filly, and rode her pretty successfully.
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      • #4
        If you are willing to take a chance on a young stallion, how about Bretton Woods? He certainly has a beautiful front, although it is yet to be determined whether he will pass that on. There is a lot of hype about him right now, so I imagine the foal will be quite marketable. And he is a son of Johnson who you admire.


        • #5
          I knew one Johnson that was NUTS (I would PERSONALLY avoid the Jazz line if I wanted better temperament ). OO Seven is a great producer and usually throws good temperament (plus dark coats).

          What about VDL Prestige?

          "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.


          • #6
            generally I agree with Donella about the Jazz temperament. (not for the faint of heart, eek!) Bretton Woods is out of a D line mare though, so one would hope that would have a "cooling" influence on the temperament. He is so young though, so it's really all just speculation at this point.
            I have generally heard good things about the temperament of 007, and he comes from a phenomenal damline. However, the one I know of personally has a fairly challenging temperment (so did his dam though)
            How about Bordeaux? He also come from a super damline.
            I think Prestige can throw pretty large. Not sure if that's a problem for you. He sure is pretty.


            • #7
              *Disclaimer* Given that we don't know your mare (but I guessed who she is by her stats), I offer this as info only.... Have you looked at Voice? http://www.oldenhoff.nl/hengsten/voice.php?lang=en
              Judy Yancey is carrying him for the 1st time in the U.S. Stellar pedigree with well-known sires that would interest many, not just KWPN breeders, and now being ridden by Edward Gal and winning. Beautiful horse with top movement and said to have a very workmanlike character. I'd guess a foal out of an Elite Sport mare and by a stallion competing in the big rings under the top rider would be very marketable. And as an added bonus for some, he does not carry genes for chestnut. You'd also be getting the same mare line as 007
              Last edited by Indy-lou; Mar. 19, 2011, 04:26 PM. Reason: add
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              • #8
                I like Voice, but for this mare, Equistar is looking for more reach in the front leg - if she also means more length of foreleg, Voice would not be the way to go, as the KWPN report suggests he needs mares with a good length of foreleg.

                Here is 007's offspring report:

                O Seven showed a varied collection of moderately to more than sufficiently developed foals that are of moderate to more than sufficient riding type and that are of moderate to more than sufficient rectangular model.
                The form of the head varies. The poll is good in length and form. The neck, good in length and generally good in form, varies in muscling. Sometimes there is a ewe-neck. The wither has sufficient length and sufficient development. The shoulder is sufficient in length and placement. The back is repeatedly hollow. The muscling of the back is generally good. The generally well-muscled loins are sufficiently connected, but tight in some cases. Repeatedly the croup is a little short, but the placement is more than sufficient. The hamstring is sufficient in length. The foreleg shows sufficient quality. The feet are generally narrow.
                The walk is pure and has more than sufficient scope. The trot is light and has sufficient scope. The foreleg is generally used more than sufficiently. The foals hold their neck to high in the trot and are stiff through the back. The hindleg is actively used, but should come under the body more. Some foals are cow hocked. The foals don't jump into the canter easily.
                One foal inspected at home fit in with the rest of the picture in regards to development and type and deviates positively in movement. A second foal was sick to the degree that inspection was not warranted.
                The quality of the mares varied.

                My suggestion is Ampere - the Flemmingh blood should add to calmer temperament. I have not had rideability issues with the three Ferro's I have bred - they are sensitive to the aids but very bold and have super work ethics. I, too, would stay away from Jazz for this mare. I'm interested in seeing everyone else's suggestions and comments.
                Martha Haley - NeverSayNever Farm
                2009 KWN-NA Breeder of the Year/Silver Level Breeder


                • #9
                  Martha, I guessed that this mare was from your farm?
                  Here's the breeding advice the KWPN published about Ampere. "Ampere can add movement technique and appears to fit best with long-lined mares with a long and correct foreleg". So, he may or may not add any length in the foreleg.
                  Though the breeding advice for Voice is also that he be paired with mares who have good length in the foreleg, his foal report indicates that among the inspected foals (13 out of 44 breedings), "the foreleg is correct and has more than sufficient length". One could make a better call if they knew what this mare is likely to produce herself, and in that regard, I'd listen to Martha!
                  Another stallion to consider, though he may not have the marketable cachet you are looking for in the U.S. is Uphill (Oscar x Apollonios), specifically because his foals have been described by the KWPN as "well-developed, long-legged, riding type foals", that "move easily with scope and they make front". Probably the best place for you to shop is via the www.kwpn.nl website and link onto the English version and approved stallions. There, a lot of this info is readily available on most of the stallions. On some, it only appears in Dutch, but the conformation and test scores are usually present. Not knowing your mare, my input is strictly for info only and giving you some directions to explore. Certainly, you have a super mare by virtue of her achievements, so let us know which choice you eventually make. Got any video of her moving to share?
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                  • #10
                    How about Lingh?
                    A poorly fitted saddle hampers both horse and rider.


                    • #11
                      Nothing too add...but I love this post! KWPN stallions suggestions always have my attention!


                      • #12
                        The Johnson mare I know has a superb temperament and she is even a chestnut! She has the perfect temperament for a dressage horse - sensitive, but sane!
                        Last edited by foxhavenfarms; Mar. 22, 2011, 11:49 PM. Reason: grammar


                        • #13
                          I hope this works.

                          I've been reading these forums for years, but hesitated to join for many reasons.

                          I own a Jazz/Contender/Bold Indian/Lord filly.

                          She is an athlete, like Jazz and like Cocktail (of course, her dam's side is quite amazing as well). Nothing mean, very intelligent, extremely talented and very dedicated to her person. I am truly honored to be able to work with her.

                          A Jazz offspring is very special!

                          Good luck!
                          Last edited by Katis; Mar. 23, 2011, 03:14 AM.


                          • #14
                            I am not sure how you feel about Dutchies but I have a Pacific Star STV filly.

                            Amazing temperment, big mover, size and SIMPLE to ride.

                            Another local Pacific filly that I was following sold for $13,000 as a green 3 year old and very quickly I might add.


                            • #15
                              After checking with Equistar, I am able to assist in this discussion by supplying a conformation picture of this mare and a bit of video from her keuring (as a four year-old).

                              Yes, Indy-lou, she is a product of my breeding program.

                              Conformation shot: http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l9...illesJanko.jpg

                              Keuring video:
                              Martha Haley - NeverSayNever Farm
                              2009 KWN-NA Breeder of the Year/Silver Level Breeder


                              • #16
                                How about Westpoint?
                                Cindy Bergmann
                                Canterbury Court


                                • #17
                                  No suggestions, just wanted to say wow , very impressive mare.


                                  • #18
                                    Sorry Dutch for the Jazz suggestion. I know the lady who had the mare previous. Lot's of suggestions out there; her breeder is stunning; perhaps VDL may suggest as well? Seigi (sorry, sp) as well? Farrington?


                                    • #19
                                      Martha, she's stunning. Sorry I missed you at the meeting. She should have been at the meeting to represent Idocus as a mare sire.
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                                      • #20
                                        What a beautiful mare! And congratulations on her sport career.

                                        You are spoilt for choice regarding stallions for her aren't you? Since she is a maiden I'd go for a proven upper level sire and having just bought a Jazz x Flemmingh filly who has the most incredible laid back temperament and was backed without any problems at all, as was her 4yo stallion brother by Westpoint, I'd say don't rule out Jazz or any of his sons. They aren't all sharp, they are incredibly talented and they are commercial. Your own suggestion of Johnson ticks a lot of boxes. He has just won a big stallion competition in holland at PSG level and won it by a mile. He looks every inch a future GP horse.

                                        You could look at Flemmingh's sons. He was known for his good temperament but do make sure your mare has a strong loin. Possibilities are Krack C, Lingh and Mooiman who is Flemmingh x Roemer and an international GP stallion. He is a lovely boy with good paces and a super temperament.

                                        As has already been suggested there is 007. The 007s I've met have all had super temperaments but I'm not aware how far 007 trained in sport?

                                        You could look at a Trakehner. There are a higher % of Trakehner stallions competing at GP than any other breed according to the announcer at Neumunster. A very nice one is King Arthur. Or there is Oskar who is in the US and who carries dual purpose dressage and jumping lines just like your mare.

                                        Whoever you choose your foal is likely to be stunning.