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question on single dose/two dose frozen semen breeding

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  • question on single dose/two dose frozen semen breeding

    Hi all..
    I just relocated to the NW from the midwest and I am finding conflicting information as I begin to interview vets for this springs breeding season. I am used to a very successful vet who was able to breed my mares on farm using timed insemination with a single dose and a very good success rate. What I am being told here is there is a large price difference between single dose and two dose breedings...based on the claim they need to do ultrasounds every few hours. The two dose is before and after ovulation. My old vet obviously did not do ultrasounds every few hours and timed it close to perfectly. I just feel Im not dealing with the truth.. I do not know enough to argue, make demands and so forth... its just from experience and a 'gut' feeling. I have had nearly every vet I spoke to out here say this... they wanted two doses of frozen or they would charge nearly $400 more. So why is there such a difference.. is it really necessary to US every couple hours? Can timed insemination be assumed with a single dose.? Im not even sure what to ask but Im facing all my breeding plans having to change because , first, I dont trust these new vets, and secondly I really dont believe they cant use timed insemination with a single dose.. This is a 1/2 vet 1/2 seeking advice.... feedback anyone?
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  • #2
    I read the article on SBS's website and it says you need two doses for the timed insemination protocol...

    Or at least, that's how I understood it? I'd love to hear the way to do it with only one dose! I suppose it depends if you get one or many straws?
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    • #3
      My understanding with the frozen semen timed insemination protocol is that it is a TWO dose protocol. The vet fees will be cheaper, as there are not so many ultrasounds, but you will be paying more for semen because you are using two doses. It probably makes more sense to do the two dose protocol if the semen is relatively cheap, but if you are dealing with semen that is $1700 a dose, you probably want to just use one dose and breed post-ovulation. So yes, I imagine that there would be a very large difference in your vet bill. I am in the pacific Nortwest, but on the Canadian side of the border. I use Dr. Juan Samper. He is very good at what he does, but VERY expensive.
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      • #4
        My vet US's every few hours to be able to get the timing right. She charges around 1200 - 1500 per cycle (depending on how many ultrasounds, post insemination protocol ect). Yes, it's expensive but I wouldn't want to do the two dose protocol because if they don't get the mare pregnant you are out TWO doses of semen AND the vet fees. I don't want to have to order four doses of semen per mare at the start of the season (but thats just me).

        But since we are on the topic, is the timed protocol much more successful first time around??
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        • #5
          I'm in Australia and it cost one dose $550.00 frozen when I did chilled it cost $400 (5 years ago) one dose again. I really don't understand why anyone would waste two doses of semen on one cycle.

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          • #6
            The vet I worked for last breeding season did both protocols. We had a QH client with unlimited frozen and we did the 2 dose protocol so we could stretch out the time between the u/s. Then with others who we limited with their frozen we were u/s every 3-4 hours depending on the mare. The best part is she is very affordable. I will have to ask her for her exact numbers but her success rate was very high using both protocols. It was sure fun driving out every 3 hours last year to her farm though LOL. Is there anyway you can find out the vets you are interviewing success rate with both. Good luck. Finding a truly good Repro Vet is like finding a good spouse
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            • #7
              my vet does a one dose which is $650 per cycle and the two dose is $450, the difference being ultrasounds every 6 hrs with the one dose.

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              • #8
                Mine charges a flat fee for frozen, which includes ultrasound every 6 hours. I request only 1 insemination, post ovulation. There is no need to US every 2 - 3 hours!! I don't like the 2 dose protocol with frozen as frozen is much more irritating to the mare than fresh chilled. I don't want to cause fluid retention problems unnessarily with 2 doses of the stuff, plus it is WAY more expensive with the 2 dose protocol if you have to pay by the dose. Never had any problems this way and gotten lots of mares in foal this way.

                I don't trust the timed protocol as none of my mares have ever read, or adhere to, the ruses!
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                • #9
                  There is some research out there that splitting one dose can be done for the timed insemination protocol. We don't split doses and we only do timed insemination protocol using two doses if we have been supplied two doses. When dealing with expensive semen, we breed once, post ovulation. If you are dealing with a single dose, yes...you need to be checking for ovulation every six hours. Most vets physically just cant do that. Heck, it's all we do and there are days when I question my sanity. Sleep deprivation is an ugly thing.

                  We charge a flat fee of $395 to deal with frozen semen. That includes ALL of the ultrasounding/palpation and it includes doing them every six hours. I'm assuming you're near Spokane? Have you checked with WSU? Just a thought. Edited to add duh. Western Washington, not Eastern Washington. But, WSU may still be an option?

                  Good luck!
                  Last edited by Equine Reproduction; Mar. 14, 2011, 10:04 AM.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Equine Reproduction View Post
                    There is some research out there that splitting one dose can be done for the timed insemination protocol. We don't split doses and we only do timed insemination protocol using two doses if we have been supplied two doses. When dealing with expensive semen, we breed once, post ovulation. If you are dealing with a single dose, yes...you need to be checking for ovulation every six hours. Most vets physically just cant do that. Heck, it's all we do and there are days when I question my sanity. Sleep deprivation is an ugly thing.

                    We charge a flat fee of $395 to deal with frozen semen. That includes ALL of the ultrasounding/palpation and it includes doing them every six hours. I'm assuming you're near Spokane? Have you checked with WSU? Just a thought. Edited to add duh. Western Washington, not Eastern Washington. But, WSU may still be an option?

                    Good luck!
                    And of course, it always depends if you can split the dose! It's it's a 5 ml straw... No luck!
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Equine Reproduction View Post
                      There is some research out there that splitting one dose can be done for the timed insemination protocol. We don't split doses and we only do timed insemination protocol using two doses if we have been supplied two doses. When dealing with expensive semen, we breed once, post ovulation. If you are dealing with a single dose, yes...you need to be checking for ovulation every six hours. Most vets physically just cant do that. Heck, it's all we do and there are days when I question my sanity. Sleep deprivation is an ugly thing.

                      We charge a flat fee of $395 to deal with frozen semen. That includes ALL of the ultrasounding/palpation and it includes doing them every six hours. I'm assuming you're near Spokane? Have you checked with WSU? Just a thought. Edited to add duh. Western Washington, not Eastern Washington. But, WSU may still be an option?

                      Good luck!
                      That is why it is IMO best to ship mares to a clinic. They can get done what they need done to get in foal. U/S when they need them, breeding post ov or as close to as poss, etc.
                      One straw doses are fine, in fact it forces the clinic/vet to really be on their game since they wont be splitting doses or wasting semen:-).
                      Dr Pedro Jou only froze that way.

                      And clinics factor in sleep deprivation costs, it is "what they do", after all. :-).
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                      • #12
                        We only use the single dose protocol. I'm sure that we would do the timed protocol if a client requested it, but so far no one has. We charge a flat rate of $350/cycle and we do ultrasound around the clock, every 6 hours. Even if taking your mare to a well-known clinic, you need to specifically ask what their protocol is. I was shocked to find out that one of the top Universities in the country, known for their breeding research told me that they wouldn't check my mare (she is not currently with me) through the night. They would check her at the end of the work day and then first thing the next morning. I have opted not to use them.
                        Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hillside H Ranch View Post
                          I was shocked to find out that one of the top Universities in the country, known for their breeding research told me that they wouldn't check my mare (she is not currently with me) through the night. They would check her at the end of the work day and then first thing the next morning. I have opted not to use them.
                          Maybe a Uni clinic is not the best place to go? I sure wouldnt take a mare to the one around here, they are supposed to be so great, but when pressed for actual success rates with ETs etc, the tone changes.
                          I am talking more about vet clinics where the vets live on site, and basically get no sleep from April until end October.
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                          • #14
                            My vet ultrasounds every 6 hours as well, it doesn't matter what time of the night. He does have another vet working with him now, so they can take turns not sleeping. Seriously, I think it might be cheaper for me to ship my mares down to Equine Reproduction or Hillside H rather than paying the prices up here in Canada. $400 per cycle, seriously? That's amazing.
                            www.saraalberni.com

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                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              At this point, I may consider shipping. Maybe I am confusing my terms (its been a whole year ) I just recall my vet back home doing the US to see where the mare was in her cycle, we gave a series of shots , then a final US to confirm ovulation.. then she was bred. Im being told her with the one dose breeding they 'need' to check every few hours. I would think there would be some level of predictability to avoid that. I dont know what is harder on the mare.. two doses of frozen or the multiple US. Whats more frustrating is these vets came highly recommended but I still have little red warning lights going off.


                              Originally posted by Equine Reproduction View Post
                              There is some research out there that splitting one dose can be done for the timed insemination protocol. We don't split doses and we only do timed insemination protocol using two doses if we have been supplied two doses. When dealing with expensive semen, we breed once, post ovulation. If you are dealing with a single dose, yes...you need to be checking for ovulation every six hours. Most vets physically just cant do that. Heck, it's all we do and there are days when I question my sanity. Sleep deprivation is an ugly thing.

                              We charge a flat fee of $395 to deal with frozen semen. That includes ALL of the ultrasounding/palpation and it includes doing them every six hours. I'm assuming you're near Spokane? Have you checked with WSU? Just a thought. Edited to add duh. Western Washington, not Eastern Washington. But, WSU may still be an option?

                              Good luck!
                              www.windhorsefrm.org and on Facebook too!
                              Where mares rule and Basset Hounds drool!

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                              • #16
                                I am not understanding what is hard on a mare in the U/S precedure. Doesnt affect the repro tract at all. Mare leaves stall, goes into stock, gets U/Sd in her rectum, leaves stock, goes back to stall.

                                The more semen in a female anything, the more chance of inflammation.
                                Semen is rough stuff!
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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by imajacres View Post
                                  Maybe a Uni clinic is not the best place to go? I sure wouldnt take a mare to the one around here, they are supposed to be so great, but when pressed for actual success rates with ETs etc, the tone changes.
                                  I am talking more about vet clinics where the vets live on site, and basically get no sleep from April until end October.
                                  And yes, I would agree with this now, too
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                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    I was just thinking of the risk for tears..I was told by the vets they dont do the procedure but students or other staff do it.. I can understand the vet cant be there ever two hours.. but it does make me nervous. Just one more thing to worry about I guess..


                                    Originally posted by imajacres View Post
                                    I am not understanding what is hard on a mare in the U/S precedure. Doesnt affect the repro tract at all. Mare leaves stall, goes into stock, gets U/Sd in her rectum, leaves stock, goes back to stall.

                                    The more semen in a female anything, the more chance of inflammation.
                                    Semen is rough stuff!
                                    www.windhorsefrm.org and on Facebook too!
                                    Where mares rule and Basset Hounds drool!

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                                    • #19
                                      They don't need to palpate every 2 hours. And I would not personally be comfortable with students or "other staff" doing the palpating.
                                      Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Equine Reproduction View Post
                                        There is some research out there that splitting one dose can be done for the timed insemination protocol. We don't split doses and we only do timed insemination protocol using two doses if we have been supplied two doses. When dealing with expensive semen, we breed once, post ovulation. If you are dealing with a single dose, yes...you need to be checking for ovulation every six hours. Most vets physically just cant do that. Heck, it's all we do and there are days when I question my sanity. Sleep deprivation is an ugly thing.

                                        We charge a flat fee of $395 to deal with frozen semen. That includes ALL of the ultrasounding/palpation and it includes doing them every six hours. I'm assuming you're near Spokane? Have you checked with WSU? Just a thought. Edited to add duh. Western Washington, not Eastern Washington. But, WSU may still be an option?

                                        Good luck!
                                        I am very near Spokane, which is not too very far from WSU (2+hrs). But WSU is pretty spendy -- not really much of deal. And, while Dr. Tibary is very well thought of, I'm honestly not sure how successful he's been with frozen.

                                        If the OP IS near Spokane, I would recommend Dr. Jed McKinley in Deerpark, WA. He is probably the best around with frozen and actually is pretty successful in ET as well.

                                        Have no idea what he charges, but he has a good success rate.

                                        And I would have to ask the OP how she could be so sure her vet wasn't doing alot of ultrasounds? My understanding is every 6 hrs minimum and if ovulation is near, even more often.

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