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No DNA done on KWPN horses after 2004...final update from KWPN

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  • #41
    ah, the Dutch, gotta love them lol. (I can say that, I am 50% dutch)
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    • #42
      I don't think the KWPN is the only registry that does not do DNA if the foal is presented with the mare. I don't believe Oldenburg NA does DNA (only on ETs and yearlings). I'm guessing there are others?
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      • #43
        I checked with the KWPN and was informed that actual DNA verification on foals is done on a random basis (like drug testing here) and that tends to keep people honest.

        The other thing that has been left out of this discussion is that once the KWPN breeding stock goes for studbook/Star evaluation, DNA is verified. In other words, once the horses become breeding animals there is no doubt as to their parentage.
        Siegi Belz
        www.stalleuropa.com
        2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
        Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

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        • Original Poster

          #44
          I already posted this email from KWPN about this last Friday 3/11 :

          Since 2007 we also do a DNA test on all mares that were at the KWPN selection to be entered in our studbook.

          And email from KWPN this this morning:

          A DNA test is only done as random check or for foals that were born out of embryo transplant, weaned foals, foals with more than one possible stallion as Sire etc., etc.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by siegi b. View Post
            I checked with the KWPN and was informed that actual DNA verification on foals is done on a random basis (like drug testing here) and that tends to keep people honest.
            4% of not "very honest" people is significant and relates to 800 horses that have a "wrong" pedigree every year...
            I think it's in the best interest of the breeders to have a systematic DNA test.
            "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, And treat those two imposters just the same"
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            • #46
              Andy, I guess it's those 4% that continue to beat the French horses in the world standings!

              We DNA test all the foals in the US and we still have lots of horses that we can't track because of the USEF's refusal to insist on one registration number per horse (with pedigree), and new owners just re-registering the horses with a different name.

              What I'm trying to say is that there will always be crooks and not just in the horse business and you can have all kinds of checks and still not prevent them.

              Just my opinion.....
              Siegi Belz
              www.stalleuropa.com
              2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
              Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

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              • #47
                Originally posted by siegi b. View Post
                Andy, I guess it's those 4% that continue to beat the French horses in the world standings!
                Huh? So you really think it is okay that the parentage of most Dutch bred horses is suspect, as long as the Dutch are beating the French in the show ring?

                What a bizarre rationalization.

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                • #48
                  Leave it up to DownYonder to grossly misinterpret a little attempt at levity....

                  Besides, I wouldn't say that "parentage of most Dutch horses is suspect" when the number being thrown around is 4%. Exaggerate much?
                  Siegi Belz
                  www.stalleuropa.com
                  2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                  Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by siegi b. View Post
                    Leave it up to DownYonder to grossly misinterpret a little attempt at levity....
                    Nope, didn't misnterpret at all. Your comment indicated that you think it is okay if 4% of Dutch horses have dubious parentage as long as they beat the French horses.

                    Sorry, in my book, there is NO excuse for registries to NOT do parentage verification on EVERY foal - no matter where born, no matter if by fresh or frozen or live cover, etc., etc., etc. ESPECIALLY when registries are crowing about their standings in the rankings and marketing horses and semen based on those standings and the "pedigrees" of those horses.

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                      Nope, didn't misnterpret at all. Your comment indicated that you think it is okay if 4% of Dutch horses have dubious parentage as long as they beat the French horses.

                      Sorry, in my book, there is NO excuse for registries to NOT do parentage verification on EVERY foal - no matter where born, no matter if by fresh or frozen or live cover, etc., etc., etc. ESPECIALLY when registries are crowing about their standings in the rankings and marketing horses and semen based on those standings and the "pedigrees" of those horses.

                      Oh my word. Siegi was obviously just making a joke but is obviously not making light of the subject. Of course, this should be taken seriously.
                      Chris
                      Ladybug Hill--Hunters and Ponies
                      WWSD? (what would Suerte do?)

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                      • #51
                        But hang on here, before we get all nasty at each other, I know that the VhW Hanno people have twice asked me to resend foal hair because I dont know what was wrong; obviously there was a lab screw up, or whatever. ( And I was never the "puller of hair" as it is always an official, so cant even say I did it wrong, phew)
                        Hair resent, issues fixed.

                        No talk of "foul play".

                        Now if I could just get my Standardbred X past the DNA gods........ ( joke, dont shoot me)
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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by siegi b. View Post
                          We DNA test all the foals in the US

                          What I'm trying to say is that there will always be crooks and not just in the horse business and you can have all kinds of checks and still not prevent them.

                          Just my opinion.....

                          Maybe a good reason to buy US bred. Nudge Nudge Wink Wink
                          "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

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                          • #53
                            The concept that if the foal is presented with the dam then DNA testing is somehow not needed is a nonsense statement in this day and age of recipients and ET technology. We have seen some pretty good looking ET mares in recent years that could conceivably pass as the dam with a very young foal at foot. This idea that we can just look and say that looks like the biologic dam and that as a consequence no DNA is needed is ridiculous.

                            We want the DNA testing to confirm the foal we produced is not only from our mare, but that the right semen was sent to us. We know our 2009 KWPN-NA Foalbook Judgement-Galoubet-Pass(Buckpasser) colt is exactly that.

                            Way too much hard work and heartache in breeding horses to not know what it is we are actually breeding.

                            Wow. This is eye opening information to learn about KWPN. Any purchase we make of a KWPN horse in the future will include a DNA test to confirm we are getting what is represented.

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                            • #54
                              I usually just read these threads to learn a thing or two but I figure I will try to add something to this one...

                              This thread reminds me of a situation I had back several years ago. I was interested in a nicely bred mare that I found for sale in the US. She had been injured but I thought she would make a nice broodmare prospect. I had the mare owner email me a copy of her registration papers. She was sired by Ferro out of a daughter of Saluut. I won’t mention which registry she was from except to say that she was not NA/KWPN as this is what these bloodlines may allude to. I am not looking to point a finger at anyone or any registry. Anyway, I thought she would make a nice addition to my breeding program and negotiated a partial trade for a 3 year old registered Hanoverian gelding that I had bred.

                              The mare in question was grey. I knew Ferro was black and that Saluut was a bay. I also knew that a grey horse had to have at least one grey parent. The dam was grey so everything seemed to fall into place nicely...until I noticed that her dam’s dam was listed as black and the dam’s sire was not grey . I figured there must have been a mistake on the colour of the grand-dam. The breed association gave me the contact info for the last known owner of the grand-dam. I contacted them and the mare was still alive and retired in their field...and indeed black!

                              I contacted the president of the breed association involved, relayed my findings and my concerns. He said that this was possible since they registered foals based on the parents that were written on the forms by the breeder and that they had no mandatory parentage verification (this was about 7 years ago so this may have changed since my experience). The end result is that I did not buy the horse, informed the owner of my findings and have not dealt with this breed association since.

                              Since this incident, I have had many conversations with other breeders and breed associations and have heard of other situations where papers did not match actual parentage. The ones I have heard of were of imported horses whose parentage was checked when they had foals of their own. This would probably never surface in the case of geldings.
                              Just thought I would share my experiences.

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                              • #55
                                Riverbend, your experience further supports the need for mandatory DNA testing for registration. BTW, lovely TB stallion you have - jump, movement AND pedigree - in what registries is he approved so far?

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                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Home Again Farm View Post
                                  I find it interesting that they feel no need to verify if the foal is still on the mare. I know of several incidents where semen was mixed up and the identity of the real papa was only revealed after the dna test came back. It does not happen often, but can.
                                  That happened to me after I had my WB gelding tested for an awards program with AHHA. I never was able to find out who the true sire was since the breeder (a well known west coast breeder - NOT Edgar ;-) ) refused to cooperate.

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                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by akrogirl View Post
                                    That happened to me after I had my WB gelding tested for an awards program with AHHA. I never was able to find out who the true sire was since the breeder (a well known west coast breeder - NOT Edgar ;-) ) refused to cooperate.

                                    If you know which stallions stood at that farm, you can maybe get DNA results on all of them from UC Davis, and then have your guy's compared to that?
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