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No DNA done on KWPN horses after 2004...final update from KWPN

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Dutch Lovin' Dressage Rider View Post
    Sorry YL I thought maybe you didnt see that it was a horse born in NL. I agree it is hard to believe. I am certainly happy that there was a hair sample and we now have DNA.
    Right but just because they had to go to the hair sample in your case does not mean that they do not test in the first instance. I think it is more likely that they do test, but misplaced the result (and thus had to go to backup) OR that even if they already tested in the past, they will test again each time that a request for papers or the equivalent is made.

    I do know that in my case, the NAWPN office insisted that we provide new hair samples from my filly when I requested replacement papers - even though she *had* already been DNA tested and papers issued by that office and despite the fact I also filled out an affidavit attesting to the authenticity of the application. And they did not care that I had a photocopy of her original papers, either.
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    • Original Poster

      #22
      I emailed a friend in NL for clarification about the DNA and hair samples. I only know what Franciska told me when I asked if there was DNA. She immediately was able to tell me No, none was done. We don't do that anymore we started taking hair samples for horses born after 2004. Put me on hold to check on hair sample and 2 minutes later had found it. I am very grateful for this hair sample bank otherwise Id be SOL.

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      • #23
        Yes, it is very different here, much more strict and more things needed for registration. One of the responses went upon the lines that DNA was not required before registration. You need to know that is absolutely not true. Here there is more required than DNA. Meaning hair samples need to match the markings and microchip in your passport done by the vet. Well micro number in horse needs to match what is in the passport. As well as markings the markings. So DNA is one piece of an identifying tool. That is the difference. So your horse from holland should have had more than just DNA to tell you he was indeed who he was.

        I was on the phone to Cyprus today. After some really interesting conversation we both figured out what we needed. But for a bit things were definitely lost in translation. Just saying.

        Terri
        COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

        "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Equilibrium View Post
          Yes, it is very different here, much more strict and more things needed for registration. One of the responses went upon the lines that DNA was not required before registration. You need to know that is absolutely not true. Here there is more required than DNA. Meaning hair samples need to match the markings and microchip in your passport done by the vet. Well micro number in horse needs to match what is in the passport. As well as markings the markings. So DNA is one piece of an identifying tool. That is the difference. So your horse from holland should have had more than just DNA to tell you he was indeed who he was.

          Terri
          A hair sample with roots is what is used for a DNA sample.
          A microchip is placed AFTER the fact. It does not ID the genetic origins of the horse.
          Many horses are plain bay.
          DNA is the ONLY way to tell 'who's your daddy?'
          A blood sample can also narrow down the field by eliminating those parents who are not possible for the horse in question.

          The KWPN website does NOT mention DNA typing in their foal registration process.
          They have a separate page that discusses the requirements for KWPN horses born outside of the Netherlands. That page discusses DNA testing. That makes it clear that KWPN-NA would have different procedures than KWPN in the Netherlands.

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          • Original Poster

            #25
            Originally posted by S A McKee View Post
            The KWPN website does NOT mention DNA typing in their foal registration process.
            They have a separate page that discusses the requirements for KWPN horses born outside of the Netherlands. That page discusses DNA testing. That makes it clear that KWPN-NA would have different procedures than KWPN in the Netherlands.
            Thank you for acknowledging this. I looked on there for the same rules when I had a brief sec earlier but found nothing either except for rules for NA.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by S A McKee View Post
              A hair sample with roots is what is used for a DNA sample.
              A microchip is placed AFTER the fact. It does not ID the genetic origins of the horse.
              Many horses are plain bay.
              DNA is the ONLY way to tell 'who's your daddy?'
              A blood sample can also narrow down the field by eliminating those parents who are not possible for the horse in question.

              The KWPN website does NOT mention DNA typing in their foal registration process.
              They have a separate page that discusses the requirements for KWPN horses born outside of the Netherlands. That page discusses DNA testing. That makes it clear that KWPN-NA would have different procedures than KWPN in the Netherlands.
              Well thanks for stating the obvious. Guess you forgot about those pesky whorls on the plain bay ones because they get marked as well. And, yeah, I get that a microchip doesn't tell you who your daddy is. But if it matches up with the markings((whorls included) in the passport which is only handed back to you after DNA has been verified, then you should be able to identify the horse.

              To me it seems that people are thinking, for some reason, that horses are bred and "faked" as to who they are. The only oops I can see happening is if you are mistakenly sent the wrong semen. That will be found out and no passport will be issued until it's cleared up just who your daddy is. Meaning, because horse is chipped at time of hair pulling and markings it will be necessary to find out who the daddy is to then make sure everything is going to match up in the passport.

              I'm glad the OP found out who her horse is. I don't know what problems she ran into but I am sorry she lost her horse out of the situation. That isn't very nice.

              Terri
              COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

              "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

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              • #27
                http://www.kwpn.org/site/main/articl...a-000c299e1a48

                This information in "English" presupposes that the foal in question is born outside of the Netherlands. It seems to be aimed at breeders in the UK re: the "English" language option, yet different from the KWPN_NA. Since I am not proficient in the Dutch language, I cannot read the rules specific to foals born within the NL. There is another link for North America, which would obviously concern the KWPN-NA. What I gather from this, and think I can safely conclude, is that there are different procedures for Dutch foals registered outside of the Netherlands. Now, what about foals born in Holland, since that is the main concern here? I cannot read Dutch, but as there is reference to veterinary involvement in the process for the UK, I tend to think something like that might well be involved for foals born in NL. I don't know, but that seems reasonable to assume. Holland is a very small country geographically. Folks in North America generally don't appreciate how small a geographic area Holland is, compared to the U.S. The KWPN is very strict and/or purposeful when it comes to stallion approval, mare assessment and breeding goals. I find it hard to believe that any policy that they have pertaining to breeding within the NL is either lax or negligent, and saying that they are seems to be the point of this thread. I would welcome input from a source within the NL to give some credible insight into the policy and procedure for our remote understanding of what happens there, but until then, I do not believe the sky is falling. And no, I am not casting doubt on the OP's report on their experience, but am saying it may lack broader context for those of us who live outside of the NL.
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                • Original Poster

                  #28
                  Here is an email I received from the KWPN. All of my questions were not answered. It offers some clarification and still some confusion.

                  "Dear Mrs.,

                  Indeed we have hairsamples from (nearly all) KWPN registered horses born since 2004. The hairsamples were taken by our foal inspector in year of birth and are kept in our files, so if ever needed we have DNA samples.

                  The hairsamples will only be used in year of birth, when a DNA test is requested. For instance if mare and foal are stationed abroad and can not be inspected by one of our inspectors, or when the foal is born from embryo transplant, is weaned or can be from more than one stallion as possible Sire, etc.

                  Since 2007 we also do a DNA test on all mares that were at the KWPN selection to be entered in our studbook.

                  Please let me know if you have any more questions.
                  Best regards,
                  Frederique van Saane "


                  So DNA requested year of birth. Dont know if required. Still not clear about why no DNA on my horse. Maybe requested but not required? Or unless one of the 3 listed scenarios occur.
                  Last edited by Dutch Lovin' Dressage Rider; Mar. 11, 2011, 09:24 AM.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Equilibrium View Post
                    First time around I needed DNA samples for mare and foal. After that for the foal only. Reason being, they already have a DNA profile on the mare which will not change obviously so yeah I am sure hers is in a bank. At not stage was I allowed to register my foal before providing a DNA sample. So don't know where you all are getting that crap from. Not different customs due to different country. Quite the same. Reminds me of when I was told on this board that Weatherby's was way behind the times as they only did blood sampling. Uh no, you get DNA from blood too or else the CSI series wouldn't still be alive and kicking would it.

                    I still have the official lock of hair pulled from my 08 baby which died in her little official packet that went with the markings chart and other stuff that came in the registration packet from the KWPN. Again, no need to redo the mare. The way you guys have the system set up it in your minds it means a stallion would have to give hair samples for every foal born. No, his DNA is on file obvioulsy the same as my mare and that I guess would be in their little DNA bank. Foals are not allowed to be registered before giving a DNA sample.

                    Sorry but some of the responses are a bit silly. Come on you make it sound like we're flipping cowboys over here in Europe registering foals willy nilly. For what reason I don't know. Ranks right up there with microchips are so easy to take out. Trust me, we are a lot more stirct over here than back home when it comes to registering.

                    Terri
                    I understand what you are saying completely except for the part about how providing a sample that is viable for DNA testing (hair or blood) actually equates to doing the test? It just means KWPN has the necessary items to perform the test, it isn't proof that it has actually been done as best as I can tell. It seems that what you have proof of is that a) you sent in hair and b) KWPN made sure there were samples of parentage also on file and c) they issued papers to you. That they also d) performed DNA testing is a leap of logic unless you also got the results of that test with your registration packet?

                    Nothing against the KWPN, for all I know the AQHA or Jockey Club doesn't test 100% of foals born in the US either, but as long as they have the samples, they can bust you any time they choose to test, should you have falsely registered a foal. Not necessarily a bad system and it probably saves everyone some money.

                    (but my suspicion is the JC tests every sample since falsely registering a foal has implications in gambling, a far more serious offense than misrepresenting a show horse).
                    Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

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                    • #30
                      Except on all passports there is a line " is parentage verified" and behind that is typed " yes by DNA. So I'm guessing they do indeed check. But that's a guess.

                      Terri
                      COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                      "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

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                      • #31
                        Terri,

                        For the last decade the KWPN has been requiring DNA AND proof of parentage for foals registered by the KWPN but born outside of the Netherlands.

                        My understanding is that the KWPN did not and does not require DNA testing of foals born in the Netherlands. I suspect this remains their policy in 2011 because their recently announced fees for registering a foal are too low to allow for the cost of a parentage test.

                        It has only been in the last few years that many German studbooks have started performing DNA parentage tests on all foals.

                        The Irish Sport Horse Studbook has been requiring DNA testing for many years. The Warmblood Studbook of Ireland parentage tests every foal against both sire and dam and has done so since the studbook was founded in 2009.
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                        • #32
                          There was an article written by Mr. Leon Melchior in an issue of his "Z magazine", talking about a study showing a high level of discrepancies in the KWPN's pedigree's.
                          Can't remember in what issue of the magazine the study appeared.
                          "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, And treat those two imposters just the same"
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                          • #33
                            http://www.zangersheide.com/en/
                            Maybe you can find that article here? It might be interesting if you can find it.
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                            • #34
                              Found an excerpt (in French...) http://www.studforlife.com/news_detail.php?id=1184
                              Because we can't access the full "Z magazine" where it appeared and I can't scan the page without infringement of copyright laws.
                              So here is a Google translation:
                              A situation incomprehensible and irresponsible
                              Of random (they don't test the 21000 KWPN ADN's)testing by the laboratory Van Haeringen, which analyzes the DNA of each year 21 000 horses showed that in 4% of cases, the DNA did not correspond with the papers. Translated into numbers, this represents approximately 800 horses per year! A stunning and troubling figure also considering that, in reality, this is about more than 21 000 horses of random testing. In recent decades, farming has evolved and a lot more professional. It's the same sport. But this evolution can take as long as all links in the chain based on exact origins.

                              Since its founding more than eighteen years, the Studbook Zangersheide has always been a proponent of this guarantee. For its farmers and for sport, Zangersheide introduced mandatory DNA testing to ensure the accuracy of the papers. Figures released by the Van Haeringen laboratory show that this is not a luxury.

                              It is neither understandable nor responsible Zangersheide that roughly one to show consistency in this area. For what it is, here is to provide maximum certainty - and is not that what every farmer wants? We do not understand that other stud-books have not implemented a similar system of mandatory DNA test.

                              It should also be noted that the studbook young, recently founded, such as the Oldenburg International, did not enter a DNA test to settle them, and that the stud-books or old classics rather ignore the problem. Horse breeding is no longer confined to the regions. Instead, it became a global issue for which there are no borders, and now all farmers have access to the seed from around the world.

                              Breeders are not about to forget the matter Lucky Boy xx, and fraud committed with his seed. Even today, the world's livestock traffic noise of rumors of semen stallions. Rumors that are starting to become credible if one considers the 4% error mentioned above. The stud-book bear some responsibility in this area. In most stud-books, decision-making power in the hands of members. That's why we wonder how it is that the decision to make DNA tests mandatory has not yet been taken.

                              Farmers should ask aloud why DNA tests were not made mandatory in general, to minimize the risk of ending up with a fraudulent pedigree.

                              We have said, the studbook bear a large responsibility in this area and it is time they assume. A studbook is only thanks to his breeders. Farmers whose interests would be best served by complete DNA testing. So why wait?

                              L.N. Melchior
                              (Italic sentence is mine)
                              "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, And treat those two imposters just the same"
                              Rudyard Kipling
                              Quartz Rouge

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                              • #35
                                Well, and then you contrast that article with what the KWPN representative wrote to the OP.... namely that they DNA on almost all of their horses born after 2004 and you have what?

                                I think somebody is trying to make a big deal out of something that shouldn't be one.

                                Just my opinion....
                                Siegi Belz
                                www.stalleuropa.com
                                2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                                Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

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                                • #36
                                  Interesting.

                                  In connection with presenting our TB mare, Camille, at the 2010 MAHB/AHS inspection, I was able to obtain her DNA profile from the Zangersheide, to whom I sent samples in connection with "Z" registration of Camille's 2008 filly, As Di Ani Z, who was registered Zangersheide because at the time, Camille's JC registry had not yet been completed, and she was not at the time eligible for AHS. Camille was of an age only to have been blood typed by the JC. The Z had DNA profiles for both Camille and Ani on file and forwarded them to me for my own records.

                                  Though, I suppose they could have simply done the testing on the samples I'd sent in response to my request for the profile information. It never crossed my mind to wonder.
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                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by siegi b. View Post
                                    Well, and then you contrast that article with what the KWPN representative wrote to the OP.... namely that they DNA on almost all of their horses born after 2004 and you have what?

                                    I think somebody is trying to make a big deal out of something that shouldn't be one.
                                    From the KWPN email...
                                    The hairsamples will only be used in year of birth, when a DNA test is requested

                                    Seems the operative word is "when". That statement in no way alleviates my concerns.

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                                    • #38
                                      Andy - that is interesting about Oldenburg International. I did not know they are not doing parentage verification, esp. since the Oldenburg Verband is adamant about it. In fact, the Verband helped lead the charge for mandatory parentage verification after the Grannus scandal broke in the late 80's/early 90's.

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                                      • Original Poster

                                        #39
                                        The mystery has been solved as to the logistics of why there was a hair sample in Holland for my deceased horse. Here is the clarifying email from the KWPN I received this morning:

                                        Dear Mrs.,

                                        Sorry for this misunderstanding. For all KWPN horses born within the Netherlands a hairsample taken by the foalinspector since 2004. All foals within the Netherlands are inspected next to their mothers in year of birth. (My horse's name) was also inspected in 2005 and also a hairsample was taken by the foalinspector. This sample was filed in our archives (with most of the other hairsamples), because there was no necessity to have a DNA verification for (My Horse). registration. A DNA test is only done as random check or for foals that were born out of embryo transplant, weaned foals, foals with more than one possible stallion as Sire etc., etc.

                                        So the DNA sample for (My Horse) was taken, but the DNA test was not performed. The sample was in our archives, until you asked us for the DNA profile.
                                        I hope to have informed you to your satisfaction.

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                                        • #40
                                          I find it interesting that they feel no need to verify if the foal is still on the mare. I know of several incidents where semen was mixed up and the identity of the real papa was only revealed after the dna test came back. It does not happen often, but can.
                                          Mary Lou
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