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Turn To in Eventing Pedigrees

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  • Turn To in Eventing Pedigrees

    This may be old news to many, but has anyone noticed the prevalence of the Thoroughbred stallion Turn To in the pedigrees of top eventers of the last five years? I have been researching the pedigrees of event horses that have placed in the top ten in a 4-star, Olympic, or WEG individual event since 2005. Here are some of the recent top-ten four-star horses with Turn To in their pedigree:

    1. The Foreman (Across the Field/Roberto/Hail to Reason/Turn To)
    2. Gin & Juice (Sir Ivor/Sir Gaylord/Turn-To in Sire's (Audio) damline)
    3. All Luck (sire's (Bao Luck) damline has Hail to Reason/Turn To)
    4. Toy Town (sire's dam line is Sir Ivor/Sir Gaylord/Turn To)
    5. Critical Decision (damline has Two-a-day/Sybil's Turn/Turn To)
    6. Casoar des Touches (sire line is Count Ivor/Sir Ivor/Sir Gaylord/Turn To)
    7. Nullabor (dam's sire line is Regal Sting/Drone/Sir Gaylord/Turn To)
    8. Mayhem III (sire (Fair Oak) has Hail to Reason/Turn To)
    9. Primmore's Pride (sire (Fair Oak) has Hail to Reason/Turn To
    10. Bonza Puzzle (sire line is Family Ties/Sir Ivor/Sir Gaylord/Turn To)
    11. Poilu (Hail to Reason/Turn To in sire line)
    12. Brandenburg's Joshua (Hail to Reason/Turn To in damsire line, Royal Charger in sire line)
    13. Connigar Bay (Sire line is Homo Sapien/Lord Gayle/Sir Gaylord/Turn To)
    14. Hide and Seek II (sire line is Regal Sting/Drone/Sir Gaylord/Turn To)
    15. Over to You (dam line is Mr. Leader/Hail to Reason/Turn To)
    16. Moon Fleet (sire line is Lord Gayle/Sir Gaylord/Turn To)
    17. Hyppolyte (Count Ivor/Sir Ivor/Sir Gayord/Turn To in in sire line)
    18. Upstage (Hail to Reason/Turn To in sire line)
    19. Orient Express (sire line (Blues Traveler) includes Sir Ivor/Sir Gaylord/Turn To)
    20. Carousel Quest (dam is by Cavo Doro/Sir Ivor/Sir Gaylord/Turn To)
    21. Two Thyme (Broadsword/Fast Turn/Turn To)
    22. Call Again Cavalier (dam line is Aristocracy/Lord Gayle/Sir Gaylord/Turn To)
    23. Lamicell Charizard (dam line has Hail to Reason/Turn To)
    24. Woodburn (dam line is Sir Tristram/Sir Ivor/Sir Gaylord/Turn To)
    25. Balmoral K.S. Roscoe (Sire's damline includes Sir Gaylord/Turn To)
    26. Kirby Park Allofasudden (dam line has Imperial Prince/Sir Ivor/Sir Gaylord/Turn To)
    27. Yeoman's Point (sire line has Bold Reason/Hail to Reason/Turn To)
    28. Lenamore (dam line has Habitat/Sir Gaylord/Turn To)
    29. Shaabrak (dam line has Turn To)
    30. Snip (sire line (Silent Hunter) has Turn To)
    31. Silence (sire line (Silent Hunter) has Turn To)
    32. La Biosthetique-Sam (sire Stan the Man has Sir Gaylord/Turn To in dam line)
    33. Lead the Way (sire line has Habitat/Sir Gaylord/Turn To)
    34. Theodore O'Connor (dam sire is Best Turn/Turn To)

    Courageous Comet, Tipperary Laidnan, Comanche Ensign and Santos also have Turn To's sire, Royal Charger, in their pedigrees.

    As for Turn To, that's at least 17.5% of all top-ten finishing 4-Star/Olympic/WEG horses in the last 5 years. This, of course, proves I'm a dork, but that's kinda neat.

  • #2
    I was lucky enough to get a TB mare some years back who was an amazing producer of lovely kind beautiful moving athletic jumpers. This is a grandaughter:
    The Turn To, Royal Charger nick is nicely placed in Stella's dam line.
    "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist


    • #3
      My friend bought a Tb mare from me couple of years ago, and now the mare is on a long term lease. But this mare was by Zaizoom, a stallion who's dam, Plumovent, was a daughter of Turn-To. She had no foals for us, but was bred twice by my friend, once to a Trakehner stallion, and another time to an Holsteiner stallion. The second foal was very very fancy. Boy he could run fast, he was very athletic. Finally, he was sold to a hunter jumper rider, but for me, he was screaming eventing! He was the whole pacage, he was very good looking, powerfull, long strides, not shy, very correct in his conformation. I had him boarded at my farm until he was 1yo, and he was a very well behavied young fellow.

      The lessee of this tb is looking to breed her this year to a Tb stallion, I will look foward to that foal!
      Les Écuries d'Automne, Québec, Canada
      Visit EdA's Facebook page!


      • #4
        TurnTo has been a top sporthorse producer for a long time. He is seen a lot through Sir Gaylord and Roberto though also through other sons and as a broodmare sire as well....he is probably better as a BM sire because he often threw a temperment on the tough side as well and that seems to me more of an issue through his sons than his daughters. Halo was not his finest work being rather famous for his bad temperment. The best mare I currently have (now retired at 26) is a HTR ganddaughter
        for quite a few years Hail The Pirates was the BM sire of several stallions on the leading Hunter lists.
        Providence Farm


        • #5
          Cool. Turn-To shows up in my own stallion's pedigree on his dam's side -- although granted, far back. (Once in the 5th generation, once in the 6th, once in the 7th.) He is a dressage stallion (and with a very good dressage record so far), but has been bred to a couple of mares to produce eventing foals.
          River Oaks Farm - home of the Elite Book Friesian Sporthorse Grand Prix dressage stallion Lexington - sire of four consecutive FSA National Inspection Champions. Endorsing the FSA.


          • #6

            I used a Turn To grand-daughter 3 x. She is now 26, but her oldest (bred to connemara) is competing novice, schooling training and preliminary at 7.

            Her youngest two won on the line as babies in dressage and hunters and are now pointed at eventing. Love the line. is my mare. Easy mare, very brave and bold.
            Beth Davidson
            Black Dog Farm Connemaras & Sport Horses
            visit my blog:


            • #7
              Wow that's some impressive research. Keep goggling.

              Don't forget all the GP jumpers that came from this blood. Best Turn sired Hand in Glove who sired Jaquar Mail and Hogger Mail. Hand in Glove raced, then competed PSG dressage then became a show jumper! He was exported to France and was leading sire of eventers there in 2002; and was an approved TB stallion in 15 registries in Europe and other continents. RocUSA, a sire of show jumpers, has Best Turn in his TB tail dam line.

              Turn to Mars sired Maximum Clearance (a GP jumper TB who got exported to stand in Ireland).
              The cue card kid just held up an empty cue card. For a minute there I thought I had lost my sense of humor. --- Red Skelton


              • #8
                Great Article

                Sent to me by my friend Carol Green:

                Beth Davidson
                Black Dog Farm Connemaras & Sport Horses
                visit my blog:


                • #9
                  Yes, but if you do the same thing with Blandford in all sport horses, you'll probably find that almost 100% have him somewhere.

                  Many of the others have Royal Charger's 3/4 sibling, Nearco.

                  These are so prevalent in TBs that it's hard not to find them somewhere in the pedigrees.
                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                  Thread killer Extraordinaire


                  • Original Poster


                    Isn't Nearco Royal Charger's sire?

                    And I agree with Blandford, Hyperion, etc - one will find those older sires almost always. I didn't look specifically at Nasrullah (also Blandford/Blenheim on dam side), but my guess is that he would exceed Turn-To as far as his percentage of inclusion in these pedigrees (and I think that has been documented multiple times already). If I recall correctly, a lot of the horses showing Turn To in the pedigree also have Nasrullah, doubling on the Nearco. The other mid-century sire that I noticed showing up very regularly was Donatello (which is that same Blandford/Blenheim line), but he's roughly a contemporary of Nearco (two generations before Turn To), and I wasn't counting him either.

                    I'm no expert, and this little exercise in curiosity stemmed from me noticing HTR and Sir Gaylord/Sir Ivor popping up fairly close up in these pedigrees, and the fact that my main horse for years (who is wonderful) is out of the Turn-To line. His dam is Smooth Turn, who is a Majestic Turn daughter. I also have a mare that is High Bright/Best Turn/Turn To, hence the look-see.

                    Probably not the most rigorous of methodology, but it was interesting nonetheless.


                    • #11
                      You're right, of course. It's Nasrullah who is Royal Charger's 3/4 sibling, and both were imported to the US and changed TB breeding here, at least until Native Dancer appeared. Those two lines appear in North American sport pedigrees consistently. The two US lines that seemed to have crossed over to sport in Europe in the past were Relic, who was exported, and Native Dancer, who was a huge plus on the export column mostly through his sons.

                      Now Mr. P is beginning to appear in European sport horses of quality.

                      I do agree about Turn-To, also an import. Although some racing people believe that he brought unsoundness with him, he's certainly proved that his descendants could perform at the very top of sport as well as racing.
                      Last edited by vineyridge; Mar. 3, 2011, 03:24 PM.
                      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                      Thread killer Extraordinaire


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                        Yes, but if you do the same thing with Blandford in all sport horses, you'll probably find that almost 100% have him somewhere.

                        Many of the others have Royal Charger's 3/4 sibling, Nearco.

                        These are so prevalent in TBs that it's hard not to find them somewhere in the pedigrees.
                        I wonder how a statistician would handle that? Anyone here good with regression, perhaps--to figure out how much influence is due to the sheer number of get vs. how much to genetics? Is that possible?
                        Sportponies Unlimited
                        Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.


                        • #13
                          The old "three races picked at random" trick, date March 3rd 2011.

                          Aqueduct, race 6, F/M going 1mile on the dirt... 8 entries, 7 have Turn To in their pedigress, most multiple times.

                          Over on the west coast...
                          Santa Anita, race 3, 4 and up going 9f on the grass.... 7 entries, 5 of which have Turn to.

                          Down in Florida,
                          Tampa Day, race 6, 4 and up going 8.5f on the dirt... 10 entries, 9 of which are descended from Turn-to

                          Let's take this show overseas, to Engerland

                          The 4:00 at Ludlow, 3mile over Chasing fences, 9 runners... only 3 of which have Turn-To.
                          Hmm, seems like they are Turn To deficient over there. Don't worry, given the prevalence of Sadlers Wells and his plethora of sons, there'll be Turn to all over the shop there too in about a decade.

                          Of course the Japanese were way ahead of the curve, they must have the most Turn To'ed population of TBs on the planet at this point.


                          • #14
                            Anyone's know if horse's read the boards? My gelding (sire: Halo Sunshine-->Turn To) keeps trying to convince me he does not want to be a big time eventer(or anything!) and be a pasture puff, but I just don't listen !


                            • Original Poster

                              There appear to be chickens and eggs afoot. I hate it when chickens and eggs are afoot.


                              • #16
                                The first American winner of Burghley, Stephen Bradley's Sassy Reason, was a son of Hail to Reason.

                                If you want to see loads of Turn To influence, take a look at racing in Japan (the JRA) -- Sunday Silence was the top stallion there for years and he has a number of stallion sons still active.


                                • #17
                                  Interesting. My Anglo-Trak mare goes back to Turn To also, though it's pretty far back.

                                  I haven't evented in years, but in addition to being a nice dressage horse, Sadie is a blast if you want to go for a gallop on the trail. I bet she'd be a lot of fun cross country if her owner wasn't such a weenie
                                  "In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn’t merely train him to be semi-human. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming part dog."
                                  -Edward Hoagland


                                  • #18
                                    I say look at the Sir Ivor line. He has plenty of descendants, but he is by no means in a majority of OTTB pedigrees. I have a grandson of Sir Ivor on the Sire side. Horse is a temperamental super athlete. Would take another in a heartbeat.


                                    • Original Poster

                                      Originally posted by Gry2Yng View Post
                                      I say look at the Sir Ivor line. He has plenty of descendants, but he is by no means in a majority of OTTB pedigrees. I have a grandson of Sir Ivor on the Sire side. Horse is a temperamental super athlete. Would take another in a heartbeat.
                                      About a third of the horses listed above are Sir Ivors. He was born in 1965 and died in 1995, so he's usually one of the Turn-Tos that is up close in these pedigrees.


                                      • #20
                                        Right. But as PP's have mentioned. Saying a horse has Turn To is a bit like saying you have an American OTTB. You are going to far back in your search for common ancestors. Viney of course knows better than I, but some lines get bred to death and others disappear. Sir Ivor was not the kind of popular sire that some other Turn To sons were. He ran in England, won the Epsom Derby. Seeing his name indicates his potency as a sport horse sire, which we already know in the world of show jumping. If he is in 1/3 of the pedigrees above that is saying more than if Turn-To were in 1/2 of them, I would think.