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How close is too close?

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  • How close is too close?

    I have a friend who is looking to breed her Westfalen mare for the second time. She has a stunning yearling by Flemmingh but this time would like a jumper. She has been given a free breeding to Atlantic. The problem is the mare has Alme Z blood and so does Atlantic. The mare is 2 generations back and the stallion is 3.

    Is this too close to breed? What are your opinions?

  • #2
    Look to see everything that Alme Z is known for, and make sure you will be happy with all of it.

    I line breed an Obelisk daughter to an Obelisk grandson, and it has been a phenominal cross for me, but there is absolutely nothing about Obelisk that I did not want to reproduce. Before I did my first cross, I researched many European approved stallions and found quite a few with the same "pattern" of repeat horses in the pedigree.

    I am expecting my 8th of this cross. Here are the first 7.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Fairview Horse Center; Mar. 19, 2008, 04:07 PM.


    • #3
      My impression is that Alme blood is intense. You'd need to connect with people who are familiar with French horses. Also, what else is in the pedigree for balance?

      I have two Ramiro granddaughters and have always been intrigued with breeding to an Alme blood stallion because of proven success but haven't done it.


      • #4
        I don't like to see half sibling or parent-offspring crosses. Other than that it's probably okay as long as the individual you're linebreeding to doesn't have any undesirable characteristics (a la Mr. Prospector linebreeding in TBs).


        • Original Poster

          Here is the stallions pedigree:

          and here is the mare's pedigree:

          Here are some pictures of the mare as well with her previous Flemmingh foal (these pics were taken 1 day after the foal was born):



          • #6
            Alme Z blood can be hot - my mare has Alme on her dam side and she can be very oppionated and sometimes explosive.

            I would be careful as to how close you line breed on Alme. Quinar is line bred on Alme - 3rd generation on both sides and from what I have heard can be a difficult ride.

            I guess it depends on what she is breeding for - amateur market - herself - professional? What is the mares temperament like? and finally is Atlantic - even though its a free breeding and I REALLY like Altantic - is he the right fit for her conformationally and temperament wise?

            By the way I mean that as no disrespect - I too am looking at doing some heavy line breeding with my mare with Ramiro Z - but I know what I am breeding for and the stallion fits her conformationally... So Altantic may be a good match depending on the above.

            Thats just my two cents...
            Hickstead 1996-2011 Godspeed
            " Hickstead is simply the best and He lives forever in our hearts"
            Akasha 1992-2012 - I will always love you sweet girl.


            • #7
              I saw on a website that a mare is bred to her sire's full sibling. What are thoughts on that? Too me it seems a little too close.
              Suerte Hostage Crisis Survivor!


              • #8
                Ratina Z was bred to her full brother Rebel Z if we are looking at close breedings.

                As for the generations back, I imagine it would be ok since that would be 3rd and 4th generation in the foal, as long as everything else is a fit, as others have said. Sounds interesting.
                Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved. - William Jennings Bryan



                • #9
                  Hasn't anyone heard of 'hybrid vigor'???? There are enough bloodlines out there not to have to inbred or linebreed. JMHO FWIW
                  http://www.talloaksfarm.net ---"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts." --- Winston Churchill


                  • #10
                    The mare has Alme and Pilot. Good performance blood but could be intense.

                    To get a horse who is willing to do the BIG fences, you may need the intensity.

                    It could be a super cross, but may not be an amateur ride.

                    Are top jumpers scoring high in rideability, character, etc.?


                    • #11
                      Not the ones I saw get high scores at the KWPN jumping IBOP last year. That inspector was scoring very high horses that looked like they had a lit fuse on a keg of dynamite used for a saddle pad. I was not impressed!
                      Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
                      Now apparently completely invisible!


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Oakstable View Post
                        The mare has Alme and Pilot. Good performance blood but could be intense.

                        To get a horse who is willing to do the BIG fences, you may need the intensity.

                        It could be a super cross, but may not be an amateur ride.

                        Are top jumpers scoring high in rideability, character, etc.?
                        I think the jumpers are trying to head that direction - obviously there has to be some intensity to be able to compete at those levels - but it seems to me there is a focus on rideability and character..

                        It would certainly be a very interesting cross...
                        Hickstead 1996-2011 Godspeed
                        " Hickstead is simply the best and He lives forever in our hearts"
                        Akasha 1992-2012 - I will always love you sweet girl.


                        • #13
                          Ridability means different things to breeders, riders, trainers, inspectors.

                          For some it means VERY forward thinking and reactive.


                          • #14
                            Look up the pedigrees of international horses and you won't find much double Alme....not because of lack of ability but because there's just less complicated ones out there. I have a double Alme mare. She's got the jump but the brain is tough. Alme seems to donate extra "nerves per square inch," and how they translate that to personality can vary.

                            My double Alme is very sensitive, so if you get the same mix of genes, be ready for lightning fast reactions, which can be both good (never touches rails), and bad (overreactive to a fault). Any little unhappy moment triggers an anticipatory reaction in that area (of body, land, object in hand type, whatever) for at least 3 or 4 more episodes before she'll relax again. She is really sweet but you just can't force anything, ever, even to the smallest degree. She's also not very trusting of the rider. She is, however, freakishly brave and doesn't think there's a fence she can't get over. I can't free jump her anymore because she jumps out of the 5.5' barrier at the end of the jump chute, and then out of the 5' arena fence.

                            Alme through Accord II is typically pretty tame, but with already having Pilot and Alme in the mare, I'd look elsewhere until you know what kind of rideability the mare will produce. Maybe something with Corde, Capitol, or L?


                            • #15
                              KRALLEN - you are describing my mare to a T also - but she is not even double Alme - she has it on the bottom through Athlet Z - but very similar personality - you cannot force ANYTHING or she blows a gasket. Probably not as sensitive as your mare but similar.

                              I too would maybe look at the Captiol line - Campesino stands here in the states and he is a direct Capitol I son.. lovely boy.
                              Hickstead 1996-2011 Godspeed
                              " Hickstead is simply the best and He lives forever in our hearts"
                              Akasha 1992-2012 - I will always love you sweet girl.