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value of a top hunter sire?

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  • value of a top hunter sire?

    Kind of an off the wall question: what would an estimated dollar value on a top hunter sire like Redwine be, presuming that you could buy one?
    Blog: The Continuing Adventures of an (ahem) Mature Re-Rider without a Trust Fund...but, finally, A Farm of Her Own!!

  • #2
    I'm going to say over 100k for Redwine...easily. A top hunter gelding/mare sells for over 100k so surely a stallion would easily fetch that.
    Oakwood Farm
    Home to Rowntree Welsh & Half Welsh Hunter Ponies!
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    • #3
      That would depend on the horse's competition value more than anything. Popeye, for instance, sold for a good deal of money as a first year horse, but it was more because he was going to be successful in the ring than because of the fact that he was a stallion. The fact that he had a following already as a sire and a potential to bring *in* money was certainly a benefit and consideration for his buyer, but he would have been in very close to the same price bracket without those considerations. Certainly there have been lots of geldings that have sold for the same or much more.
      I don't think there are that many people that want to own a hunter stallion just for the sake of standing one, so without a competition incentive the cost would have to be what it was worth to the owner to make them inclined to sell it. Some variation on what they put into it to acquire and advertise it, combined with the average of what it brings in.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by mortebella View Post
        Kind of an off the wall question: what would an estimated dollar value on a top hunter sire like Redwine be, presuming that you could buy one?

        Do you mean, what was he bought for at auction, or what would someone pay now that he has hunter babies in North America?
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        • Original Poster

          #5
          Well, I'd be curious to know his auction price (I googled a little but didn't find it readily) but I would've assumed it went way up since surely they're making a mint standing him so successfully? But my original thought was what he would fetch today (or a similarly successful - maybe the word I'm after is "popular" sire.)
          Blog: The Continuing Adventures of an (ahem) Mature Re-Rider without a Trust Fund...but, finally, A Farm of Her Own!!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by mortebella View Post
            Well, I'd be curious to know his auction price (I googled a little but didn't find it readily) but I would've assumed it went way up since surely they're making a mint standing him so successfully? But my original thought was what he would fetch today (or a similarly successful - maybe the word I'm after is "popular" sire.)
            I think the key ( as you touched on above) would be to define a "top hunter sire". Is it: a) a stallion who is a top hunter himself b) a stallion producing successful hunters (not just line horses) or c) a popular sire. You can see that there is a lot of subjectivity in the definitions themselves!
            Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
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            • #7
              I don't think he has yet been proven to be a top "hunter sire" - I for one don't think HB ranking holds much weight these days - JMHO - watching for years what becomes of the "babe wonders". Flame suit on of course

              Popeye K - on the other hand - is now showing what his get can do in the ring - and there have been some nice ones I have had the pleasure to see lately -

              There are quite a few stallions who are "hunter" stallions who have more bonafides than the one mentioned - given that they have offspring on the ground that are showing in something other than hunter breeding. Been around longer so one can actually see what the prospects have become AND evaluate which type mare matches best to that stallion.

              I will now go make popcorn
              "Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."



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              • #8
                Originally posted by MyFancyHunterPony
                I'm going to say over 100k for Redwine...easily.

                No way.

                Needs a big performance history (at the bigger jumps) and get that are doing the same.
                Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by MyFancyHunterPony View Post
                  I'm going to say over 100k for Redwine...easily. A top hunter gelding/mare sells for over 100k so surely a stallion would easily fetch that.
                  Are stallions really that desirable to show folks? I would think unless they are very, very quiet, that they would be less appealing to the broad market as a show prospect. There is more liability, management, and I would suspect that most owners/agents do not want to deal with the breeding end of things.
                  I am sure I could be quite wrong, but it just seems to me like more of a labor of love, not a money making venture.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mortebella View Post
                    Kind of an off the wall question: what would an estimated dollar value on a top hunter sire like Redwine be, presuming that you could buy one?
                    To figure out the estimated dolalr value of any stallion is just an exercise in simple arithmetic. It's the same formula any business would use when determining the value of an asset.

                    His stud fee x the number of mares per year he breeds = gross yearly income.

                    Gross yearly income - expenses = yearly profit

                    Yearly profit x number of years he has left in the breeding shed = value of stallion.
                    www.OneJumpAhead.ca

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ravencrest_Camp View Post
                      To figure out the estimated dolalr value of any stallion is just an exercise in simple arithmetic. It's the same formula any business would use when determining the value of an asset.

                      His stud fee x the number of mares per year he breeds = gross yearly income.

                      Gross yearly income - expenses = yearly profit

                      Yearly profit x number of years he has left in the breeding shed = value of stallion.
                      Hmmm-- interesting formula, but hardly relevant to the scenario in question, especially since so much of a hunter stallion's value often does depend much more upon his show record (which is itself expensive to acquire and maintain) than "the number of mare he breeds." IMO, that's why a great many good hunter stallion prospects lose their jewels early in their careers.

                      Of course it's nothing new to see the formulas used for tax purposes, business plans, etc. diverge sharply from reality. I doubt your formula would serve well at all for such purposes as shopping, for example, as the expenses involved in campaigning and standing a hunter stallion are frequently much higher than his "gross yearly income," making the stallion's "value" a negative # on the books.
                      Good luck tryng to buy one for that!
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                      • #12
                        I really depends if you are buying the horse to breed or to show. In Redwines case I certainly believe they could easily get 6 figures for him as a show horse. He looks simple to ride, he is pretty and jumps and moves good & has gotten good ribbons in good company.... which is what everyone wants.
                        www.signaturesporthorses.com

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by monami View Post
                          I really depends if you are buying the horse to breed or to show. In Redwines case I certainly believe they could easily get 6 figures for him as a show horse. He looks simple to ride, he is pretty and jumps and moves good & has gotten good ribbons in good company.... which is what everyone wants.
                          And his babies are stunning.

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                          • #14
                            Hessy- Yes they are! I finally got to see a few in person at Lauri P's place and WOWOWOWOW!
                            www.signaturesporthorses.com

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by monami View Post
                              I really depends if you are buying the horse to breed or to show. In Redwines case I certainly believe they could easily get 6 figures for him as a show horse. He looks simple to ride, he is pretty and jumps and moves good & has gotten good ribbons in good company.... which is what everyone wants.
                              Well, I personally, would take one of Tish Quirk's "Best" boys over this dressage-bred stallion. Or A Fine Romance. Cunningham. Popeye K (but you do need the right mare - she must have some blood but not too much) And I've always liked Magical for movement, jump and looks.

                              MHO, his movement (hunter-wise) is average as is his jump. Bear in mind that he has been ridden over courses by some of the best hunter riders in the world and that a rider at this level can move a horse's jump up considerably.

                              I'm not bashing him - gawd knows the "R" line is a sweet one and very rideable. But when I'm breeding for a hunter, I want more than four white feet on a dark coat.

                              Sue
                              "Horsemanship is not merely a matter of bodily skills, but is based on scholarship and, therefore, is a matter of the mind and intellect." Charles de Kunffy

                              http://www.equiimages.com

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by fish View Post
                                Hmmm-- interesting formula, but hardly relevant to the scenario in question, especially since so much of a hunter stallion's value often does depend much more upon his show record (which is itself expensive to acquire and maintain) than "the number of mare he breeds." IMO, that's why a great many good hunter stallion prospects lose their jewels early in their careers.

                                Of course it's nothing new to see the formulas used for tax purposes, business plans, etc. diverge sharply from reality. I doubt your formula would serve well at all for such purposes as shopping, for example, as the expenses involved in campaigning and standing a hunter stallion are frequently much higher than his "gross yearly income," making the stallion's "value" a negative # on the books.
                                Good luck tryng to buy one for that!
                                I am speakig strictly on his value as a stallion. If you are buying him as a show horse and want to geld him, that's a different calculation.

                                But as a stallion, his show record is factored into his stud fee. That is, a good show record will be reflected in a higher stud fee.
                                www.OneJumpAhead.ca

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                                • #17
                                  I left some off my list - I know there are more so I'll apologize in advance.

                                  Edgar's boys Landfriese and Escudo II. Probably the Baron too, but eeuw, I've already done the "scrubbing the gray" thang. LOL

                                  Crown Affair: I saw him at indoors some years ago. What a sweet horse, beautiful jump and so very pretty.With me, it does not hurt that he is a plain bay - if he had lop ears as well he would be *perfect* LOL.

                                  I like showjumper66's lineup too. I have a soft spot in my heart for Silver Lining (deceased) as I have a close friend with a gelding by his full brother Landor S. We get along very well. And I am astonished that Vallado does not get more interest from the hunter folk - he is pretty, jumps great and honestly, carries himself like a hunter.

                                  I've also been impressed by some of the Beste Gold offspring I've seen.

                                  And there are more.

                                  Just some musings.

                                  Sue
                                  "Horsemanship is not merely a matter of bodily skills, but is based on scholarship and, therefore, is a matter of the mind and intellect." Charles de Kunffy

                                  http://www.equiimages.com

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                                  • #18
                                    goodness gracious

                                    First, "yikes."

                                    Second, I agree with the posters who stated a stud is probably going to be valued higher as a competition hunter who can win the big shows than as a stallion. I'm ready to be proved wrong, however. Personally, I want to see working hunter height capability. I'm also very interested in, and following the emerging Derby market.

                                    But that's just me, and I do not begin to think I am capable of preaching breeding gospel.
                                    DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by SueL View Post
                                      I'm not bashing him - gawd knows the "R" line is a sweet one and very rideable. But when I'm breeding for a hunter, I want more than four white feet on a dark coat.

                                      Sue

                                      Four white feet, dark coat - and perfect confirmation. Most warmblood breeders know that dressage and jumping lines often intermix. These are sporthorses, bred for sport. Which means they should be able to excel over fences and on the flat. IMO, The prefect stallion throws both (and would be more valuable than most). Redwine's offspring will have to speak for themselves over the next few years, but I sure do like what I see right out of the gate, and his temperament is unbeatable (thank you R line). I’d like one his babies in my field any day.

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                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Golly gee. In NO WAY wanting to start a train wreck. Was just curious as to...the big money stallions must change hands occasionally. My thought was that figuring "value" whether for insurance or sale purposes would have more to do with earnings at stud than show records. So this is really instructive for my tiny brain cells. And yes, i totally get it about there being more proven sires. And my curiosity is not strictly limited to hunters - that just seems to be how they're "marketing" Redwine, and he seems to be sire du jour. And I would be astounded if they couldn't sell Redwine for $100K based on my sense of what they must be making from stud fees. But, I'm trying to educate myself. Are the expenses of standing a stallion like this really so high that you end up going in the hole? Are your chances of making money better if you stand more than one (based on the theory that two can live as cheaply...?) Sorry, I'm really hijacking my own thread at this point.

                                        To sort of elaborate a little on my mental problem, I do get that show record influences, say, asking price for stud fee, and, to some extent, influences popularity too, but my feeling is that popularity - in modern times - is more a function of, what's the temperment like, prepotency, will he improve my mare, perceived market value of the get (although that one's somewhat a function of the show record) whereas in the old days, everybody just wanted to breed to a world champion something or other. The popularity thing seems to be more and more related to a kind of viral marketing, largely through the internet; certain sires seem to be everywhere because the owners of their get are really active in posting things about them. I saw this with Sempatico. That's another one I'd be fascinated to know - let's say, what do you suppose they have him insured for, i.e. "replacement value"? (Trying to avoid the tackiness of asking about "price tags.")
                                        Blog: The Continuing Adventures of an (ahem) Mature Re-Rider without a Trust Fund...but, finally, A Farm of Her Own!!

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