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Bravo Scott Hassler- BANG on- again!

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  • Bravo Scott Hassler- BANG on- again!

    I was thrilled to read Scott's piece in this weeks Chronicle. He discusses the necessity of registering your horses, and makes his case at several different levels.

    In my breed, it is a sad truth that breeders will, far too often, sell horses without their papers- quite intentionally. They will have a dealer/broker pick up a load, and they simply do not the world to know that their stud produced that horse. Unfortunately, these are the horses who will make superb sport horses, many times, and YES, we would like them to have their identity intact.

    You never know what that backward foal might grow up to be, so, regardless of bloodline or preferred registry- please remember that this is your horses "birth certificate"- that will, for their whole life, let people know who they are, and where they came from.

    And BRAVO Scott- another honest and frank assessment of an issue that crosses many lines.
    When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
    www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
    http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    I'm not a subscriber. Can you summarize his points?
    www.oakhollowstable.blogspot.com

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      In no particular order of importance...

      He states that it is important to register a foal- even if you plan on keeping that horse forever- so that you can make sure that the horse is eligible for programs/competitions that you may not contemplate at the time the foal is born.

      It helps to track the performance of particular bloodlines, to see what is going into sport horse bloodlines- I believe he is referring, somewhat, to the idea of tracking via database, ultimately.

      Breeder recognition- BIG point!

      And, it safeguards the future of the horse. I am really on board with that one!
      When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
      www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
      http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

      Comment


      • #4
        Not so sure about the article. It's about breed registration papers but he mentions the IHF as an example, saying the horse is not eligible unless registered. But in the case of the IHF there is no requirement for breed papers. The stallion has to be nominated in order for the foal to participate. No breed papers required, just IHF recording. The IJF also requires the stallion to be nominated but you don't need breed registry papers to participate.

        I think we have discussed in other threads that papers do nothing to track performance horses. And there have been lots of threads discussing the premise that papers do nothing to stop horses from going to slaughter.

        I'm all for giving the breeder credit. But I think the article was more about giving credit to the breed organization than anything else.
        Fan of Sea Accounts

        Comment


        • #5
          Did he mention how much it costs to register said foals?

          Just an example of charges;

          American Warmblood Registry
          P.O. Box 197 Carter MT 59420
          Phone (406) 734 5499 Fax (775) 667 0516 amerwarmblood@aol.com www.americanwarmblood.com
          2008 FEE SCHEDULE REGISTRATION FEES:
          Stallions $ 350.00▪▪
          Foreign Registration Administration $ 195.00
          Mares/ Geldings $ 175.00 Foals less than four weeks of age $ 150.00 #
          Foals over four weeks (but under 10 months) $ 175.00 #
          DNA typing $ 100.00 DNA typing (Multiple kits) $ 75.00
          Bloodtyping (Pricing good through June 2007) $ 170.00
          Reading of non-AWR DNA-cases $ 45.00▪

          MISCELLANEOUS FEES:
          Annual Membership (Non-members pay double fees)
          Membership AWR $ 75.00
          Lifetime Membership AWR $ 800.00
          Registration Certificate Changes $ 35.00
          Ownership Transfer within 3 months of date of sale $ 35.00
          Ownership Transfer within 6 months to twelve months of date of sale $ 85.00
          Ownership Transfer after twelve months of date of sale $ 150.00
          Registration Certificate Replacement $ 250.00 *
          Annual Stallion Breeding Permit $ 250.00
          Parentage Verification Report $ 160.00
          Breeding Reports - Late fee, per month late $ 100.00
          Foreign breeding transfer fee (per breeding) $ 200.00
          Add photo to online stallion roster $ 45.00 AWR Jacket $ 65.00** (XL & XXL $80)
          AWR Fleece Pullover $ 55.00**
          AWR Hooded Sweatshirt $ 35.00**
          AWR Polo Shirts –navy blue $ 30.00** AWR Baseball cap $ 15.00**
          AWR Logo Bumper Sticker $ 1.00
          AWR Saddlepad Dressage/Jumper $ 75.00**
          Plus shipping fee (Priority Mail) one item (See merchandise order form)

          INSPECTION FEES:
          Stallion pre-inspection –Conformation & Triangle & Liberty $ 500.00 ##
          Stallion Performance Test $ 500.00 ##
          Mare or Gelding Grading $ 100.00 ##
          Mare/ Gelding Performance Test* $ 300.00 ##
          Youngstock Grading- Conformation & On Triangle $ 100.00 ##
          Foal Inspection N/C ## Branding of adult horses (pending approval from office) $ 350.00
          Site Host Fee $ 900.00


          Just add up ALL the charges that are required to get a foal registered (mare registration, membership DNA typing for both, and inspections) and then decide if it's worth it.
          ... _. ._ .._. .._

          Comment


          • #6
            Equibrit - is that common for all registries? It can't be.
            When I registered my two with the CSHA, membership was $80, and registering a foal is an additional $80 and the DNA test was $50. Everything was under $250 by the time I was done-I don't see why you wouldn't register, quite honestly. It increased the value of the horse, imo, easier to track, ect.
            In my opinion, a horse is the animal to have. 1300 pounds of raw muscle, power, grace, and sweat between your legs - it's something you just can't get from a pet hamster.

            Comment


            • #7
              I haven't seen the article yet.

              Did he discuss the value of the Unique Equine Life Number? That is what will be useful to track data.
              www.clearbluefarm.com - a work in progress

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Clear Blue View Post
                Did he discuss the value of the Unique Equine Life Number? That is what will be useful to track data.
                No, not mentioned.
                Fan of Sea Accounts

                Comment


                • #9
                  Oldenburg ISR;

                  Mares


                  1. If you present a mare at an inspection and if you are a new member you need to pay at the inspection: (all fees in US$)
                    -registration entry and inspection fee for the mare$ 150.00 -membership fee$ 80.00
                    If you present a mare with a foal/yearling and if you are a new member, you need to pay:
                    -for the mare's registration entry and inspection fee
                    (includes the annual fee for the year of breeding)$ 180.00 -for the foal registration and branding
                    (200.00 for a yearling or 250.00 for a 2yo)$150.00 -membership fee$ 80.00
                    There is a fee of $ 30.00 for incomplete paperwork!
                    (e.g. missing copy of the registration paper/pedigree)
                  < TOP > Foals



                  1. If you present a foal/yearling and if you are a new member, you need to pay directly at the inspection:
                    -registration entry for the foal (200.00 for a yearling, 250.00 for a 2yo)$150.00 -membership fee$ 80.00
                    Even if you don't own the dam of the foal/yearling, you also need to pay membership fee, since your name/address will be listed as a separate address.

                    If the dam's annual fees for the year of breeding and foaling had not been paid, you also need to pay these fees.

                    There is a fee of $ 30.00 for incomplete paperwork! (Missing original breeding certificate, missing letter of parentage verification for yearlings and older)
                  < TOP > Stallions

                  -Inspection fee, must be paid with the nomination(400.00 if nominated before April 1st)$500.00
                  -Registration entry, if your stallion passes the inspection and will get a Certified/Lifetime Breeding License (includes annual fee of that year)$300.00
                  -Membership fee for the year of registration entry$ 80.00

                  There is a fee of $ 30.00 for incomplete paperwork! (missing copy of the registration paper/pedigree and performance records or 100 Day test result)




                  Oldenburg Horse Breeders' Society
                  North American Division of Verband der Züchter des Oldenburger Pferdes
                  150 Hammocks Drive,
                  West Palm Beach, FL 33413. Phone 561-969-0709, Fax 561-969-0064 Oldenburg@oldenburghorse.com
                  2008 Fees Membership:

                  Annual Membership fee $ 65
                  If paid after November 30 th, 2007 $ 100

                  Broodmares:
                  Inspection fee $ 150

                  Foals:
                  Inspection, registration, micro chipping and DNA typing (including annual mare fee) $ 250
                  Birth certification $ 300 Yearling registration, micro chipping and DNA typing $ 300 Two-year-old $ 350 Surcharge for single breeding permit $ 100

                  Breeding Stallions:
                  Inspection fee $ 250 Registration fee, young stallions plus DNA typing(done at inspection) $ 200
                  Registration fee, older stallions plus DNA typing(done at inspection) $ 300
                  Annual fee, all stallions $ 350

                  Services:
                  Transfer of Ownership $ 50 Re-issue of lost papers $ 150
                  Pedigree research for Jockey Club mares $ 15
                  ... _. ._ .._. .._

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Not only to track who the horse is but, importantly, to have a guarantee of birth date. As horses get older and change hands, they end up having elastic birth years.
                    Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Scott is right on. And if you decide to breed, you need to factor in all the costs involved in breeding...from vet fees, stud fees...and yes, registration fees. It's just a part of the "business", even if you are doing it for yourself. If you plan to breed, you need to think about ALL the costs...registration is a part of the cost.
                      "Dreams are the touchstone of our characters." Henry David Thoreau
                      Touchstone Farm
                      www.bytouchstonefarm.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I read that article thinking just the opposite, alas. Well, not opposite, but more like thinking that was all well and good for the dressage-sporthorse type, but how relevant is it for eventers, jumpers or hunters? I really think we have to solve the identity issue before registration will really make much of a difference, don't you? I can see how useful it is in disciplines where young horses are recognized by several systems (showing, inspections, etc.), but what about those disciplines where there's a lot of time between registration and recognition? That's where things break down, I suspect, and so why, while it's a good theory, it might not actually be as worthwhile in practice--not until there's a way to insure that a horse keeps its identity throughout its career (especially when it changes hands). Also, and as usual, his perspective always seems to backburner the existance of and important role played by the American Thoroughbred...

                        [I'm reminded of this because I found it pretty cool to see the number of TBs competing in the $50K Grand Prix at HITS today. They're not extinct yet!]
                        Sportponies Unlimited
                        Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Here's a small quote from the article:

                          'This leads to rewards, feeling good about our programs and the ability to track how we are progressing. What a shame for a nice horse to be restricted from a program because he is not registered. In many cases again, the end result becomes upsetting to the owner of the horse or the new purchaser of the horse. '

                          I can't think of any programs a hunter would be restricted from on the basis of 'breed papers'. Maybe he is referring to the All Breed awards, triangle trotters? If so, what he says is not relevant to Hunters and has little bearing on Jumpers.
                          For Hunters the only recording needed is USEF and that's if you want points. Jumpers do require recording if a class has over x$ but again, no breed papers required.
                          I don't think the FEH program requires breed papers either.
                          So what programs is he talking about?
                          Fan of Sea Accounts

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            So, in the case of the brilliant lady who bred the amazing Teddy, and anyone seeking a horse bred to have the jump and quality to be a hunter, or just plain jump, and be a jumper, you really do not think that knowing how they are bred- in the short, or long term makes a difference?

                            If this is the case, you ought to stop advertising the relationship between horses, because, I mean, what the heck- can you prove it? And who cares?
                            When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE them- Maya Angelou
                            www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
                            http://www.asbsporthorse.blogspot.com/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              PTF - the AHS offers awards on hunter performance and for instance, this year the co- champion USEF hunter breeding champion was NOT listed for an AHS award because the breeder/owner of the filly did not file COP papers and did not register the foal, meaning the stallion owner got no recognition.

                              I think that is a shame for the stallion owner - and for the AHS who cannot track the results of unregistered foals from AHS approved stallions. Yes, the USEF has those results, but depending on your point of view, it may not help in the promotion of US based breeding if foals are not registered, particularly for our desire (or mine at least) to establish hunter breeding in the US.

                              JMHO
                              "Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."



                              www.dontlookbackfarm.com

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                "Not only to track who the horse is but, importantly, to have a guarantee of birth date. As horses get older and change hands, they end up having elastic birth years."
                                And all this time we thought that the airplane or van ride to the new owner was actually in a time machine...
                                Anne
                                -------
                                "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Well, number one, you don't need a registry to prove bloodlines. # 2, how many of the registries are actually TRACKING performance? NONE. Yes, they have some year end awards that may or may not be accurate but the registries are not tied into the USEF and therefor don't know what horses in their own database are doing in sport. Heck, the euro registries here in the U.S. don't even share information between themselves.

                                  What we need is a registry that is designed around the U.S. sporthorse world - not the european one - that aids people in bringing horses to market economically, has an aggressive interest in tracking the horses in sport and shares that information and creates a branded image that pulls buyers to the product instead of sending them overseas.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by 3Dogs View Post
                                    PTF - the AHS offers awards on hunter performance and for instance, this year the co- champion USEF hunter breeding champion was NOT listed for an AHS award because the breeder/owner of the filly did not file COP papers and did not register the foal, meaning the stallion owner got no recognition.

                                    I think that is a shame for the stallion owner - and for the AHS who cannot track the results of unregistered foals from AHS approved stallions. Yes, the USEF has those results, but depending on your point of view, it may not help in the promotion of US based breeding if foals are not registered, particularly for our desire (or mine at least) to establish hunter breeding in the US.

                                    JMHO
                                    Is the sire/dam info listed with USEF and the breeder info?
                                    If so then the stallion owner got credit for a win in a larger pool of competitors than the limited AHS awards. Somehow the USEF award seems more important.
                                    Why would lack of breed registration deter recognition of American bred horses. Perhaps you are more interested in breed registry recognition?
                                    Does AHS really consider HB as a 'performance' division?
                                    One more question? How does AHS track performance ? Surely you don't mean that they have the USEF results files sent to them?
                                    Fan of Sea Accounts

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      PTF - I cannot answer your questions about how the AHS recognizes its awards - I suspect they do indeed find out from the USEF. As a breeder of Hanoverians, for the hunters, I would like to see ALL major awards that their registered stallions, registered mares and registered foals win. But that won't happen if one of those are not registered. So yes, I do care about the breed registry. The USEF is fine, I use it,I belong to it, but it's goals are not to promote Hanoverians, which is important to me.

                                      I have not received my Chronicle yet - I am on the last paper route apparently -
                                      "Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."



                                      www.dontlookbackfarm.com

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        The AHS awards program is for its members.

                                        The horse needs to have registration or COP papers from the AHS. The owners need to be current members and the division the horse is competing in needs to be registered with the AHS (each year).

                                        The awards chairman reviews the (online) USEF division rankings for the horses names that are signed up for those specific divisions.

                                        The horse 3dogs mentions is listed as an Oldenburg. It would not be eligible for the AHS awards.
                                        www.clearbluefarm.com - a work in progress

                                        Comment

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