• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Color Enthusiast ~ Liver Chestnut: The "gateway for color"?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Color Enthusiast ~ Liver Chestnut: The "gateway for color"?

    Happy Friday Everyone! <Grin>

    I am interested in hearing opinions, or experiences (evidence) regarding whether Liver Chestnuts are the “color carriers”.

    Example: I am looking at Silver Dapple. This is what spurred this discussion.

    When looking at Silvers… it is very common to see it expressed (and registered as) on/as liver chestnut.

    So when looking at SD… I’ve figured out to find SD(s) that perhaps their owner’s may not know they are SD(s), I have started directly looking at Liver Chestnuts.

    The other week I mentioned to my operating partner…”I think…that color is expressed more on a liver chestnut base coat”..

    And then a few days later…while doing some internet research, I started seeing other threads/topics/opinions of the same theory.

    What I found was not specific to silver dapple. It was general in the palomino/buckskins, and of course the variation of shades.

    But the general thought was that when breeding a Liver Chestnut to a Palomino or a Buckskin (not cremello or perlino or Double Dilute)…that your odds of getting a single dilute foal by product, was increased.

    I haven’t had time to do full out research. But I thought it would be interested to see what fellow color enthusiast, thought or found to be true (so far) in their color breeding programs.

    Anyways: Thought it would be at least a fun Friday distraction! =)
    "Never let the fear of striking out, keep you from playing the game."

  • #2
    Liver Chestnut is my all time favorite color. Period.

    It's also the hardest to get, in my opinion.
    Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      VB ~ In my later years.. I have to agree.

      It seems as long as I have had my own "ponies" (Regardless of how tall they are, they are always my "ponies") I have been "cursed" with REDS! And they say... once you own a red.. you will always have reds!

      So I am not a fan per-say of regular ol chestnut... (of course quality is quality regardless of color).

      After I got out of the horse scene for a bit, and came back into it just a few years ago... my first horse back...is...ta da... a liver chestnut.. and he's a chocoloately color with a Copper hue in the summer... GORGEOUS.

      So... When shopping for a mare for an upcoming breeding I have planned... of course I said... ANYTHING but Red or Gray...

      What did I end up with?

      Possibly (not confirmed yet) another Liver Chestnut... same stunning color as my gelding. And when I saw her (I can guarantee she is superb quality) the color, really was an added bonus and just "spoke" to me. lol...maybe it's b/c I am absolutely in love with my gelding <grin>.

      and fancy this.. the planned breeding IS a color breeding.. although it's to a Double Dilute so I KNOW I will get color...Liver Chestnut or not..

      But I'm hoping the Liver Chestnut base creates the "sootyness" on the foal <grin>
      "Never let the fear of striking out, keep you from playing the game."

      Comment


      • #4
        I am with VB. It is my all time favourite color. What to know something strange? Usually when I find one and inquire about breeding, more often than not, one parent has been grey. No science here, just an observation.

        Have been in love with a mare I have seen at shows for the last 3 weeks. A big tank of a liver chestnut. She's by Last News. He's grey, a TB, lines we all should know here, and a stunning color and clipped. What's not to love! Trainer tired to argue she was bay. Look at the legs man! She ain't bay!

        Terri
        COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

        "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Too Funny Terri!

          And oh! and added mystery to the Liver Chestnut scenario...

          Will be something fun to correlate, see who jumps on here and whether their horse has a gray parent.

          Mine is out of a Bay mare by a Red stallion... so no grays there.. but will have to look out for it when I do searches.

          Interesting.

          and that's funny.. My boy can look bay too (at times) to the untrained eye, but most definitely liver!
          "Never let the fear of striking out, keep you from playing the game."

          Comment


          • #6
            If I understand what you're getting at - I just have to say that it would really be scientifically impossible for the non-dilute parent to influence whether or not the dilute gene is passed on by the other single dilute parent. The non-dilute parent (whether liver chestnut or otherwise) doesn't have a way to influence what genes get passed along by the other color gene donor.

            I would say any perceived increase in single dilute foals out of or by a single liver chestnut parent (when bred to a single dilute) is nothing more than coincidence.

            With that being said, there are may single dilute sires/broodmares that produce above the expected 50/50 dilute/non-dilute norm. I know of a silver bay QH stallion that passed along his silver gene (to non-silver mares) something like 80%+ of the time across two foal crops. Unfortunately he passed away before we could get a true average across a large number of foal crops.
            We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Thanks Talia,

              I know that it has not been "proven". But there has been more and more talk of it as of recent. And the color genetics of equines is still so perplex and mystifying no matter how far along we've come. There's still so much more to know, and we are making more progress and making new discoveries every day.

              I was just curious as to people's thoughts and or their experiences. To see if just by the comments on this thread, what the odds have been =)

              And to share the love of liver chestnuts and colors in general =)
              "Never let the fear of striking out, keep you from playing the game."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Equilibrium
                I am with VB. It is my all time favourite color. What to know something strange? Usually when I find one and inquire about breeding, more often than not, one parent has been grey.

                Terri

                Let me chime back in ...........

                I have a chestnut TB broodmare (I LOVE her) who is the mother of those twins that were born on 2006. One is liver chestnut, one is not. Sire was a brown/bay.

                She has had two other foals, both grey, but she was bred to greys both times.

                This year she was bred to a black stallion. Wonder what color I'll get?????
                Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

                Comment


                • #9
                  Interesting re: the liver out of a grey hmmm...

                  Wally is really dark chestnut - like port wine color and his sire was grey (not sure of the base color though). His dam was dark bay. I've debated having him tested for Agouti but in the end he is chestnut and carries sabino and am not sure if it 'proves' anything in the end to spend the $. Every year I hope to have one the same shade of chestnut...we've come close with Wizard but in the end it doesn't matter what color the foal is - as long as it is healthy.

                  One of our broodmares - Emmy - is by a grey (base dark bay with a chestnut sire and grey dam) and she is a really dark liver chestnut. She's had 3 really dark chestnut foals by Wally but not quite as dark as he is. She is bred to a grey (base black and had a chestnut sire) and now I am very curious to see what color the foal is at birth.

                  Interesting. Thanks for starting this thread!
                  Watermark Farm
                  Blog
                  Watermark Farm Facebook Fan Page
                  You Tube Channel

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    From a breeder of mostly colored horses I have a bit of experience here.

                    Liver chestnut is a red horse with possibly a sooty or smutty influence. It has no influence on the passing of the single cream gene (single dilute) from either a single or a double dilute mate....that is occuring within the eggs or sperm of that dilute mate. In theory a single dilute horse (say a palomino....red with a single cream) will pass that single cream along with a 50/50 chance at each breeding. This may or may not also equal 50% single dilute foals. My old palomino stallion sired single dilute foals about 80% of the time but each of those foals was conceived with a 50/50 chance of getting the cream gene. A red horse, BTW, won't make a buckskin foal unless the mate is black based, has a bay form of the agouti gene and has a single or double cream. My perlino is apparently a homozygous black, agouti and cream...so sires nothing but buckskins...won't sire smokey black or palomino. Haven't had him tested (should do) but of 14 horses in 3 generation pedigree 13 are black based with agouti and most with a single cream...the one red is third generation back. There is also a possibility that he has a dun gene (his sire is registered as buckskin but photos show a dorsal stripe so would have been a "dunskin"....dun plus cream on bay).

                    Silver dapple that looks somewhat like liver chestnut is a black based color so the idea that chestnut would be more of a color carrier doesn't have anything to do with the result of silver on black based colors (black or bay). Silver only effects the black pigment so even though a red horse may carry it it won't show or cause any changes in the red horse's coloring... the red horse with silver that is bred to a black based horse would have a 50% chance of passing the silver (if the silver is heterozygous in the red horse). Depending on whether or not the black based horse was hetero or homozygous for black you would have a 50 to 100% chance of a black based foal...and that foal would have the 50% chance of silver being present....or a total of 25% chance to 50% chance of being both black based and silver.

                    There is some thinking that chestnut horses are more inclined to allow for expression of white markings (Paint/Pinto)....I don't know the genetic mechanics of this but haven't noted it in my own Paint breeding...have black and bay Paints as well as chestnut/sorrel Paints and am getting approximately the same numbers of colored foals from each.
                    Colored Cowhorse Ranch
                    www.coloredcowhorseranch.com
                    Northern NV

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      VB- You will have to update us when the foal arrives =)

                      And Tasker - NP at all =)

                      Coloredcowhorse:

                      The example of the theory or suspicion that the red based coat colors allow for more expression of the white is kind of where I was going with the liver chestnut allowing for more expression of color.

                      If you do a search, it does come up... at least the "talk of".

                      The liver chestnut color has always intrigued me.

                      My gelding has an almost black mane and tail, does actually have a good chunk of black through out it, the rest is a very deep brown/mahogany color and his legs are definitely about 3 shades darker then the rest of his body.. where as if he WAS a bay... he would have the black legs.

                      In any sense, I sure hope if I do use this mare... and it's a DD stallion, so guaranteed some form of dilute... that at least the "sooty" part of the liver chestnut is correct, and it carries through to my foal. I also hope it's a filly <lol>!
                      "Never let the fear of striking out, keep you from playing the game."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DontStrikeOut View Post
                        Thanks Talia,

                        I know that it has not been "proven". But there has been more and more talk of it as of recent. And the color genetics of equines is still so perplex and mystifying no matter how far along we've come. There's still so much more to know, and we are making more progress and making new discoveries every day.
                        Yes, I am someone who is personally VERY fascinated by color genetics. I researched color genes obsessively after I discovered that my own "dun" APHA mares were actually silver gene carriers.

                        You may want to email UC Davis or some of the other DNA color testing labs for their thoughts on the topic. If there is any validity to the rumors I'm sure they have looked into it.

                        To me, the thought that a non-dilute parent could somehow "pull" the dilute gene from the other single dilute parent just sounds, well, impossible.

                        The other thing to consider is the fact that many breeders have a certain degree of color blindness when it comes to their foals. They tend to see what they want to see. There are many liver chestnuts that perfectly mimic a sooty palomino and vice versa. So the color that they want is what goes on the papers in lieu of having a DNA test done.

                        I have many examples of this phenomena taking place. It is very common to see dark brown horses being marketed as black, liver chestnuts as sooty palomino, gray as blue roan etc. People just can't let the color that they hoped for go sometimes!
                        We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DontStrikeOut View Post
                          The example of the theory or suspicion that the red based coat colors allow for more expression of the white is kind of where I was going with the liver chestnut allowing for more expression of color.
                          The theory that the gene for black (E) can be a suppressor of white markings has nothing to do with the likelihood of a gene being passed or not passed from a parent. In essence the theory is this:

                          Red based foals (pali, sorrel, chestnut etc) that receive a white pattern gene from a parent will tend to have bigger, wilder white markings than a black based foal that receives the same type of white pattern gene from a parent.

                          For example, here is a sorrel homozygous tobiano:

                          http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3084/...2cb861b912.jpg

                          Here is a black homozygous tobiano:

                          http://ox.equinenow.com/equine/data/photos/192776_1.jpg

                          The black homozygous tobiano is exhibiting some evidence of a white pattern suppressor, which in theory causes his white markings to be very minimal.

                          Now, there are some VERY loud black based pintos around so this theory does obviously not apply to all cases. It happens frequently enough among black-based pintos however that the theory really can't be ignored.
                          We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Thanks Talia!!

                            Good thing I like black/bay and minimal white <grin>
                            "Never let the fear of striking out, keep you from playing the game."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              LIver chestnut with four socks and a star has given us black, bay and live chestnut with four socks and a star many times over. Lots of oil spots, roaning, stripes, white birdcatcher spots etc too.
                              Love those blingy liver chestnuts!
                              Anne
                              -------
                              "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                ^^ COTH really does need a like button. "Like" Anne! <lol>

                                That's my gelding... Liver chestnut, heavily roaned, 3 socks (range from minimal to taller) star and stripe.

                                and TB all the way =)

                                Now.. if only he was a mare..<grin>

                                I loff him no matter what though <smile>
                                "Never let the fear of striking out, keep you from playing the game."

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Tasker View Post
                                  Interesting re: the liver out of a grey hmmm...

                                  Wally is really dark chestnut - like port wine color and his sire was grey (not sure of the base color though). His dam was dark bay. I've debated having him tested for Agouti but in the end he is chestnut and carries sabino and am not sure if it 'proves' anything in the end to spend the $. Every year I hope to have one the same shade of chestnut...we've come close with Wizard but in the end it doesn't matter what color the foal is - as long as it is healthy.

                                  One of our broodmares - Emmy - is by a grey (base dark bay with a chestnut sire and grey dam) and she is a really dark liver chestnut. She's had 3 really dark chestnut foals by Wally but not quite as dark as he is. She is bred to a grey (base black and had a chestnut sire) and now I am very curious to see what color the foal is at birth.

                                  Interesting. Thanks for starting this thread!
                                  Since your mare is dark chestnut and is bred to a heterozygous-for-black horse that is also hetero for gray...you have 50% chance of chestnut or of black based and each of those has 50% chance of graying with age.
                                  Colored Cowhorse Ranch
                                  www.coloredcowhorseranch.com
                                  Northern NV

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by DontStrikeOut View Post
                                    ...

                                    Will be something fun to correlate, see who jumps on here and whether their horse has a gray parent.
                                    I have a liver chestnut gelding who is by a grey or roan sire out of a chestnut mare. He has 2 socks, a star, strip and snip. He's a deep mahogany color, with a lot of darker mottling.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by TaliaCristianna View Post
                                      The other thing to consider is the fact that many breeders have a certain degree of color blindness when it comes to their foals. So the color that they want is what goes on the papers in lieu of having a DNA test done.

                                      I have many examples of this phenomena taking place. It is very common to see dark brown horses being marketed as black, liver chestnuts as sooty palomino, gray as blue roan etc. People just can't let the color that they hoped for go sometimes!
                                      Sometimes too it is the increased registration fees as the foal gets older that encourages breeders to register quickly ...and foal coats are sometimes very, very different from adult coats so what you see as a breeder with a foal may be very different from what that same horse looks like as an adult. Add in that not all registries recognize all colors and you have to go with the nearest approximation and things get to being confusing. AND there are plenty of breeders who don't know squat about colors....not recognizing for instance that roan and gray are NOT the same thing (plenty of misregistered horses in this pair of colors). Lots of people don't know that a gray HAS to have a gray parent, a roan HAS to have a roan parent, a single cream dilute HAS to have a cream dilute parent (this one gets lots of folks when a smokey black is the single dilute parent of a buckskin or better yet, a palomino...they will swear that the "palomino gene" skips generations), a dun HAS to have a dun parent, etc. And then you get the combo colors....dun plus cream, roan plus gray etc.....makes things interesting. Even fewer know about silver, champagne and pearl for instance.

                                      I would personally like to see color testing required for registration of any horse claiming to be one of the exotic colors. I too have seen more than a few bright chestnuts with flaxen manes/tails registered as palomino (same with sooty liver chestnuts with lots of flaxen), bays with countershaded dorsals registered as duns, etc. And I'd like to see the registries (esp AQHA and APHA) list colors that are combos (AQHA at least allows notation to be made on the papers now so a red dun with cream...a "dunalino"...will have that notation on the papers if the person registering it requests...don't know that they require testing to prove it though which I think they should).
                                      Colored Cowhorse Ranch
                                      www.coloredcowhorseranch.com
                                      Northern NV

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        VABred, check out my 2008 colt that was out of a gray (flea-bitten) mare by a black stallion (bottom of page):
                                        http://www.summerwoodwelsh.com/Youngstock.html

                                        The Society called him a "liver cream". I tested him for the silver gene, he doesn't have it. Those are dark dapples under his coat. Isn't he wild?

                                        I have a liver chestnut sabino mare (she tends to look chestnut if she is sun-faded), she does not have a grey parent.
                                        http://summerwoodwelsh.com
                                        Summerwood Farm Welsh Ponies~
                                        http://www.facebook.com/Summerwoodfarmwelshponies

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X