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COTH American Horses In Sport issue lacking hunter bloodlines

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  • COTH American Horses In Sport issue lacking hunter bloodlines

    IT has been a sorce of frustration to me that bloodlines are not required documentation at the recognised hunter competitions!!!

    As a backyard breeder of WBs ,I look forward to COTH's Horses in Sport issue with great interest in seeing which sires are producing the most competitive sport horses.It is very disappointing to find that in the hunter division most of the bloodline info is missing. What is totally amazing is that the sire and dams sire is absent EVEN in the hunter breeding divisions.
    What up with that???? Also where are the results for the hunter,dresssage and jumper futurities in this issue??? Am I alone in this concern??

    Although my main focus in WB breeding is in the dressage horse occasionally one breeds a young horse thats talent is in the hunters so I would think that most breeders have a keen interest in what sires are most productive in all of the different disciplines of competition horses.(not including saddle seat and western seat disciplines).

    I'd be curious to see how other breeders feel about this subject.
    Last edited by Deepinmanure; Feb. 9, 2011, 09:34 AM. Reason: spelling error

  • #2
    Well, every time a hunter is sold, the first thing the new owner does is go on COTH as ask everyone for a good new name for their new horse. If you go up to most hunters and ask the bloodlines of their horse, they just shrug their shoulders as they have no clue. There's virtually no way to track them as every time they're sold, their name gets changed and they get reregistered under the new name - with no sire or dam information - with USEF.

    Until hunter people start caring about papers and a pedigree trail, what you want is never going to happen.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!

    Comment


    • #3
      Tiki is right - hunter folks, while they know more than they used to, usually don't care what the horse is if it can do the job. We get USEF ID's for all of our babies now but that is not foolproof of course.

      I think trainers and investors are becoming more wise about what lines are typically being attributed to making really nice hunters but more for the sake of being able to buy and sell, going to Germany to shop, etc. Riders still seem not to really care.
      Signature Sporthorses
      www.signaturesporthorses.com

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Yes, I agree Tiki .For a while I registered all of my WBs but now I wait on the geldings because if it looks they will go on to be hunters its just a waste of money to register them and drag the mare and foal to the inspections. This system with hunter breeding is counter-productive.

        Bloodlines should be a requirement on all recognized competition entries.If they really don't know they can write...unknown.It would take a minimal effort to write the sire and dams names on the entry forms. Maybe if the owners of these horse realized that this small effort would possibly increase the horses value if it has fancy enough breeding.How many Rubinstein,Ramiro,Voltaire mares sit in someones back field because they are done with their show careers and owners don't know they would be worth big bucks to a breeder?
        Last edited by Deepinmanure; Feb. 9, 2011, 10:09 AM. Reason: new idea!!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by BigEasy View Post
          IT has been a sorce of frustration to me that bloodlines are not required documentation at the recognised hunter competitions!!!

          As a backyard breeder of WBs ,I look forward to COTH's Horses in Sport issue with great interest in seeing which sires are producing the most competitive sport horses.It is very disappointing to find that in the hunter division most of the bloodline info is missing. What is totally amazing is that the sire and dams sire is absent EVEN in the hunter breeding divisions.
          What up with that???? Also where are the results for the hunter,dresssage and jumper futurities in this issue??? Am I alone in this concern??

          Although my main focus in WB breeding is in the dressage horse occasionally one breeds a young horse thats talent is in the hunters so I would think that most breeders have a keen interest in what sires are most productive in all of the different disciplines of competition horses.(not including saddle seat and western seat disciplines).

          I'd be curious to see how other breeders feel about this subject.
          It's a results issue, not a breeding issue. I think the only Hunter pedigree info given was for the leading sires and that makes sense.

          They include full placings in the Hunter National and Zone divisions. Plus the USHJA awards and PHR//Silver Stirrup. If they included pedigree info for all of those divisions the issue would weigh 10 pounds and be 1000 pages long. People want to see their name/horse name in the issue.

          The IHF is not afiliated with USEF or USHJA and most of the Hunter results came directly from the standings for those two groups. But their website has a lot of info. There is no USEF/USHJA Hunter Futurity.

          The jumpers only include pedigree info for GP classes so that's a much smaller subset of horses. They do include the 5, 6 and 7/8 jumper results because those are USEF/USHJA awards.

          I was wondering if they would include the APH/USEF results but I guess because there is no breakout by discipline and very few of the horses that placed come from H/J, Eventing or Dressage it really didn't make any difference.

          I've always felt the name of the issue doesn't make sense. "American Horses in Sport". If it was American bred horses in sport it would be a tiny, tiny issue. Maybe just "Horses in Sport"

          Pedigree info is not required at any HJ shows except for FEI level classes and that comes from the FEI paperwork. It's up to the owner to provide pedigree info or a copy of papers when they record with USEF. Many owners do not care to provide it.
          Fan of Sea Accounts

          Comment


          • #6
            Hunter bloodlines

            Many hunter breeders do care about bloodlines. What they do not care about is the existing WB registries which cater to European Thinking which is Jumpers and Dressage.

            Why would you take your lovely Hunter Breeding foal to a registry and spend $600+ for papers that you may wait over a year for? For less, you can show the youngster and have many interested owners, trainers, or buyers see the foal.

            I tried to get the fact the 50% of American Horses that show are hunters into the thickened brain of one registry. Until there is an American Registry, where hunters are appreciated and not judged as jumpers or dressage horses, most breeders of hunters will not bother to go to registries.

            The parentage of many hunters that are showing, is available on USEF, if you search the horses name.
            http://www.herselffarm.com
            Proud of my Hunter Breeding Princesses
            "Grief is the price we all pay for love," Gretchen Jackson (1/29/07) In Memory of Barbaro

            Comment


            • #7
              ^^ this.

              Comment


              • #8
                The jumpers only include pedigree info for GP classes so that's a much smaller subset of horses. They do include the 5, 6 and 7/8 jumper results because those are USEF/USHJA awards.
                You are required to send in a copy of the horse's papers for Young Jumper registration to prove the horse's age. For the IJF, the sire has to be registered as well.

                Why would you take your lovely Hunter Breeding foal to a registry and spend $600+ for papers that you may wait over a year for?
                Don't know what registry you dealt with, but none I've ever dealt with cost anywhere near that much.

                The parentage of many hunters that are showing, is available on USEF, if you search the horses name.
                Ha ha ha hee hee LOL, that's just about the funniest thing I think I've ever read on this forum. Find a hunter's breeding on USEF by searching on the name. Ha ha ha!! Which one? Every time they get sold the name changes and they get reregisterd - usually WITHOUT sire and dam because the papers were probably thrown out on the first sale.
                Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
                Now apparently completely invisible!

                Comment


                • #9
                  If the horse's name is lost its true age is lost as well.....as well as performance record.....
                  As a side note, the AWR has always had year end award in hunters and hunter breeding, and owners can declare their horses and foals for that division of the studbook.
                  Anne
                  -------
                  "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by sporthorsefilly View Post
                    Many hunter breeders do care about bloodlines. What they do not care about is the existing WB registries which cater to European Thinking which is Jumpers and Dressage.
                    This is what I simply do not get about many hunter breeders in this country. Many, too many, of the top hunters in this country come directly from the European system. Most are bred from the top jumper lines. If Europeans can breed the most successful hunters using their system (when they are not even trying, I might add), why wouldn't our hunter breeders want to do the same thing?

                    Flame suit tightly zipped up.
                    www.avenir-farm.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      [QUOTE=sporthorsefilly;5414578] Until there is an American Registry, where hunters are appreciated and not judged as jumpers or dressage horses, most breeders of hunters will not bother to go to registries. [QUOTE]


                      The KWPN-NA has a hunter breeding direction.
                      Alison/Mikali Farms
                      www.mikalifarms.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by baywithchrome2 View Post
                        This is what I simply do not get about many hunter breeders in this country. Many, too many, of the top hunters in this country come directly from the European system. Most are bred from the top jumper lines. If Europeans can breed the most successful hunters using their system (when they are not even trying, I might add), why wouldn't our hunter breeders want to do the same thing?

                        Flame suit tightly zipped up.
                        Ooooh soooo grabbing popcorn right now!

                        I agree 1000%.
                        www.EquusMagnificus.ca
                        Breeding & Sales
                        Facebook | YouTube

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          My horses have the original names that I gave them AND their records are there on USEF. So too are the records for their sires and dams. The same is true for many, many horses showing in the hunter division. Of course if you don't know how to use the USEF horse search, then that could be a problem.

                          While some buyers/owners may change a horses name, perhaps it is the responsibility of the breeder to inform the buyer of the necessity for maintaining the USEF foal registration # which costs just $35 the year the foal is born.

                          There is also NO WAY of following a horse that is registered with any of the WB Registries either for that matter. If the horses name is changed, and the papers lost, even the brand is only going to tell you that said horse was once inspected and branded...NOT who the parents are!

                          The horses that come from Europe as "hunters" are those who are NOT desireable for jumpers or dressage. Hence Europe is more than happy to "dump" them on Americans.

                          Years ago, the same was true with TBs. Those horses, who were slow, and didn't make it as race horses, became show horses.

                          Many registries have year end awards for hunters. But look at the keuring scores that the hunter types get. They are not as high as those dressage or jumper types with lots of knee action.

                          Until the "American Show Hunter" is judged by American Hunter Judges, who know what a hunter should look like, most hunter breeders will not spend $600+ for a poor score for their beautiful hunter foals.
                          http://www.herselffarm.com
                          Proud of my Hunter Breeding Princesses
                          "Grief is the price we all pay for love," Gretchen Jackson (1/29/07) In Memory of Barbaro

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by sporthorsefilly View Post
                            The horses that come from Europe as "hunters" are those who are NOT desireable for jumpers or dressage. Hence Europe is more than happy to "dump" them on Americans.

                            Many registries have year end awards for hunters. But look at the keuring scores that the hunter types get. They are not as high as those dressage or jumper types with lots of knee action.

                            Until the "American Show Hunter" is judged by American Hunter Judges, who know what a hunter should look like, most hunter breeders will not spend $600+ for a poor score for their beautiful hunter foals.
                            It's a given that many are culls of the European system, but the top horses are still a direct result of the European system. They are sired by the likes of Cassini and Voltaire and Coriano and Accord II. Does Cunningham look like a hunter? What about Cabardino? Or Popeye K? Or Sir Caletto? Nope. Not in a traditional sense anyway. These horses were identified by trainers because of their scope, their technique and their athleticism.

                            Breeding a beautiful hunter foal with a daisy cutter trot that will do well on the line is not what the Europeans are breeding for. And based on what trainers are buying and riding in the hunter rings, I would conclude that we shouldn't be either. The Europeans have changed the game and raised the bar. It's time we respond.
                            www.avenir-farm.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              While some buyers/owners may change a horses name, perhaps it is the responsibility of the breeder to inform the buyer of the necessity for maintaining the USEF foal registration # which costs just $35 the year the foal is born.
                              As long as it costs less to reregister a horse with USEF than to transfer ownership, the names get changed and changed and changed. You may be one of the very, very, very few people I've ever encountered who have not had that experience with a hunter. First thing the buyer does (if the horse is a hunter prospect) is buy a new halter and lead rope of their liking (even if you have supplied a new halter to go with the horse), a new sheet and blanket, and go on COTH on the Hunter/Jumper forum and ask for help with a new name, or let their boyfriend of husband or whatever pick a name for their new purchase, throw the papers away as soon as they get home and reregister the horse.

                              And where on earth have you taken a foal to be registered for $600?
                              Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
                              Now apparently completely invisible!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by baywithchrome2 View Post
                                It's a given that many are culls of the European system, but the top horses are still a direct result of the European system. They are sired by the likes of Cassini and Voltaire and Coriano and Accord II. Does Cunningham look like a hunter? What about Cabardino? Or Popeye K? Or Sir Caletto? Nope. Not in a traditional sense anyway. These horses were identified by trainers because of their scope, their technique and their athleticism.

                                Breeding a beautiful hunter foal with a daisy cutter trot that will do well on the line is not what the Europeans are breeding for. And based on what trainers are buying and riding in the hunter rings, I would conclude that we shouldn't be either. The Europeans have changed the game and raised the bar. It's time we respond.
                                This.
                                "Sometimes you just have to shut up and color."

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  We mainly breed for the hunters and we absolutely want papers for our foals. We won't even consider a mare that can't be approved in the highest books of their registries. In addition, it only adds to the marketability of a foal.

                                  We certainly consider what the judges say at inspection and pull out what is meaningful to us. If they say, "foal needs more knee action/expression in front" we know that is not applicable to what our goals are and is not an insult to us. But if they should say something conformational or something about elasticity/freedom/athleticism, we are listening!

                                  And in fact, if they have the athleticism, movement, quality, conformation, etc that a top horse should have, it should not get a "bad" score. None of ours have gotten "bad" scores, and in fact two of our foals this past year were Gold Premium with RPSI and are top hunter prospects in movement and type. Also our Paparazzo colt was Premium with the GOV and had NO knee, but lots of push, freedom and quality. Just because it lacks knee action shouldn't mean it lacks everything else that makes it a competitive athlete.

                                  And it's true that the sire doesn't have to look like a hunter to produce one with the right mare. In breeding you are looking for characteristics, and particularly those which are passed reliably which you desire, not necessarily the stallion himself.
                                  Signature Sporthorses
                                  www.signaturesporthorses.com

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Many registries have year end awards for hunters. But look at the keuring scores that the hunter types get. They are not as high as those dressage or jumper types with lots of knee action.
                                    Wrong. Not my experience. At all. IF the "beautiful hunter type" fillies are not getting good studbook placement scores with the AHS, it's because they are unathletic. A correct, athletic horse is an athletic horse, is an athletic horse. Whether it has knee or not.

                                    I bred one filly who won both her hunter breeding classes at the Devon Horse Show in 2010. She is Elite Eligible. Fielding was reserve champion colt at his foal inspection. Fielding won the hack at the Capitol Challange in 2010. I have another three year old I will present for studbook grading this summer. She is s hunter prospect, and a lovely mover. I expect good scores.

                                    An athlete is an athlete.
                                    "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      It always warms my heart that Saret's army comes out each time I post :-) Especially since you don't breed for hunters, and I am not sure if you even rode or exhibited hunters.


                                      So if I read this correctly we should all stop breeding horses in the US and just buy from Europe...ah yes, let Europe dictate what horses we should ride. Don't produce anything in the US, just be consumers and send the $$$ to Europe. [Sure works well with Oil].

                                      NO thanks! More than half a century with horses, gives me an idea of what I like to look at and to ride.

                                      For those who asked about keuring fees:

                                      Keuring costs
                                      http://www.belgianwarmblood.com/bwp_...tm#keuringfees

                                      Membership dues: $100/yr

                                      Mare Inspection/DNA testing = $285
                                      Foal Inspection Papers/branding/DNA testing = $295

                                      OK this is $680, then the braiding, handler, stall fee...one lucky lady paid over $1000 last year at the BWP keuring for her mare and filly foal.

                                      http://www.isroldenburg.org/index.ph...embership_fees

                                      OldenburgNA is cheaper:
                                      Membership: = $80
                                      $180 for a mare and foal, and $30/year to stay in the mare book and another $60 for the year of foaling and birth if paid after April 1 plus your membership
                                      http://www.herselffarm.com
                                      Proud of my Hunter Breeding Princesses
                                      "Grief is the price we all pay for love," Gretchen Jackson (1/29/07) In Memory of Barbaro

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        You know what's kind of scary? I just googled "Saret's Army" because I didn't understand the reference, and thought it might be literary reference. And I LOVE literary references.

                                        Google returned this thread. On a post made 16 minutes ago.

                                        Creepy.
                                        "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

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