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A different Ethics in Breeding issue - Ad re: HYPP

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  • A different Ethics in Breeding issue - Ad re: HYPP

    While thumbing thru the AQHA journal today I came across a stallion at stud ad. This was just amazing/appalling to me, the ad for an HYPP N/H stallion:

    "A great HYPP guarantee - less than 5% H/H foals produced when bred to N/H mares"

    I simply could NOT believe this ad, a FULL PAGE AD in a NATIONAL magazine, and couldn't believe it on so many levels!

    First on the intellectual level (for lack of a better term). The fact that an HYPP N/H stallion WILL contribute an "H" gene 50% of the time in any breeding obviously elludes these folks. And that means that, given enough time and breedings 25% of his foals will result in an H/H foal when bred to an N/H mare and 50% of his foals will be N/H. Although on paper he may have so far sired "only" 5% from N/H mares, this is borderline false advertising!

    Second on the ethical level. AQHA has finally taken a stand (although a very laz, and reactive, rather than proactive stand) on HYPP, and as of last year H/H foals may not be registered (cannot remember the year that N/H will not be allowed to be registered, but sometime in the future). So if AQHA took that stand then shouldn't they DISALLOW an N/H to be bred to an N/H?? I mean I think they should track the stallion/mare combination and not issue a breeder's certificate for the breeding as it is inherently wrong to breed with the possibility of an H/H/ foal (ethically it is wrong to produce N/H in my opinion, but by AQHA's own admission H/H is disallowed).

    Third an economic level. I mean WHO in their right mind would even risk a chance that they would produce an H/H foal???? I mean you end up with an expensive stud fee, shipping semen costs, vet bills to inseminate, cost of upkeep for the mare to produce a foal with basically NO worth as it cannot be registered (which to QH people reg. papers are an absolutel must).

    Sorry I was SO dumbfounded I simply couldn't believe this ad! Just what gopher hole is this stallion owner sticking his head down anyways??!!!!!
    www.shawneeacres.net

  • #2
    The no H/H foals being registered only started in Jan of 2007 (pretty recent). I did not see anything about N/H foals not being registered in the AQHA rulebook yet. Where did you see it? (FWIW I don't think HYPP or OLWS horses should be allowed to breed to each other so as not to get HYPP H/H horses or OLWS foals when it CAN be prevented).
    As to why da heck anyone would knowingly breed N/H horses together? There are some dang fools in the stock horse halter world that WANT an N/H horse because they think it helps give the horse that favored Mr. Universe look. They are willing to take a chance on getting an H/H horse like frame overo breeders are (shakes head) willing to risk getting an OLWS foal over a solid one.
    So.....yup makes sense to me that you should not breed N/H horses together if you don't want H/H horses.....but no accounting for brains (or lack thereof....) on that thinking as far as the good of the horse goes. The reason I heard it took so long to even get the H/H thing passed was that there was so much money sunk into breeders with HYPP positive horses that the AQHA powers that be did not want to bring financial ruin on the breeders that had all those horses/had invested all that money in them. (Again, the health of the horse is of no real importance here.)
    Providence Farm
    http://providencefarmpintos.blogspot.com/

    Comment


    • #3
      N/H foals cannot be reg. starting in 2010 I beleive it is.
      Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

      Comment


      • #4
        Heh, these are the folks who think that deaf horses are A-OK too.

        Recently there are a thread of a women who paid $20K for a DEAF AQHA filly and was furious because its topline was wonky. It made me want to rant and rage. But most people posting were absolutely ok with top stud quarter horses (fetching huge stallion service fees) being deaf and passing that trait on. Because he is a top money maker and that is what counts!!!

        Gosh...Why should we want our horses to hear??? let's see...maybe, herd dynamics, traffic safety, predator safety, and all sorts of reasons? Including, basic genetics and animal husbandry. But, gosh...the if the horses can't hear the crowds and then in the minds of the owners: THEY ARE BETTER REINING HORSES FOR BEING DEAF!!! Plus, we can all have lovely pure white horses (of course many will sight issues also -just give that one a few years for these idiots to figure that out).

        What a sick, sad world AQHA has become.
        Luistano Stallion standing for 2013: Wolverine UVF
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IZPHDzgX3s

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cielo Azure View Post
          Heh, these are the folks who think that deaf horses are A-OK too.

          Recently there are a thread of a women who paid $20K for a DEAF AQHA filly and was furious because its topline was wonky. It made me want to rant and rage. But most people posting were absolutely ok with top stud quarter horses (fetching huge stallion service fees) being deaf and passing that trait on. Because he is a top money maker and that is what counts!!!
          [/qb] His deafness is not a genetic trait. It also will not physically effect a horse like HYPP does or producing a lethal white foal.
          [qb]

          Gosh...Why should we want our horses to hear??? let's see...maybe, herd dynamics, traffic safety, predator safety, and all sorts of reasons? Including, basic genetics and animal husbandry. But, gosh...the if the horses can't hear the crowds and then in the minds of the owners: THEY ARE BETTER REINING HORSES FOR BEING DEAF!!! Plus, we can all have lovely pure white horses (of course many will sight issues also -just give that one a few years for these idiots to figure that out).

          What a sick, sad world AQHA has become.
          I wouldnt mind my horse being deaf because they would never have to deal with any of those situations that you mentioned. Many horses do not have to deal with any of that.


          TA:Here are some snippets from an article on equine deafness"

          The veterinary researcher has spoken with European researchers about genetic testing, and said they all suspect that “there probably isn’t going to be a single gene involved, like with hyperkalemic periodic paralysis. It’s probably going to be associated with a lack of pigment, therefore, the color markings,” she said. “If a horse has pigment in the hair cells on the inner ear, it’s going to be fine. If it has pink skin in that inner ear, it’s going to be affected.”
          And even though the gene for that lack of pigmentation is likely inherited, the result is going to depend on “where those pigment cells end up in the markings,” Stewart said.
          (Note by the gene for lack of pigment they mean any color gene such as splash frame tobiano and sabino, not a gene for deafness.)

          “If you have two affected horses and you breed them together, you’re not going to necessarily get an affected offspring,” she explained.


          Pretty much you are more likely to get a deaf foal with splash white horses because of the way there markings form but there is no genetic part to making them deaf. The gene itself does not make them deaf.
          Last edited by RiddleMeThis; Mar. 8, 2008, 02:23 AM.
          Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
          http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

          Comment


          • #6
            and i wouldn't mind my kids (human) being deaf because???????????????????get your head out of your **********.this is just my opinion.................
            mm

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by myrna View Post
              and i wouldn't mind my kids (human) being deaf because???????????????????get your head out of your **********.this is just my opinion.................
              Humans are not horses
              Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
              http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

              Comment


              • #8
                human or whatever... do you really think that hearing doesn't matter......... i do..............
                mm

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by myrna View Post
                  human or whatever... do you really think that hearing doesn't matter......... i do..............
                  Well considering Gunner (One of the major horses who is deaf) is doing so well and so are his get and his siblings, no I do not think that it makes that big of a difference.
                  Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                  http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shawneeAcres View Post
                    While thumbing thru the AQHA journal today I came across a stallion at stud ad. This was just amazing/appalling to me, the ad for an HYPP N/H stallion:

                    "A great HYPP guarantee - less than 5% H/H foals produced when bred to N/H mares"

                    I simply could NOT believe this ad, a FULL PAGE AD in a NATIONAL magazine, and couldn't believe it on so many levels!

                    First on the intellectual level (for lack of a better term). The fact that an HYPP N/H stallion WILL contribute an "H" gene 50% of the time in any breeding obviously elludes these folks. And that means that, given enough time and breedings 25% of his foals will result in an H/H foal when bred to an N/H mare and 50% of his foals will be N/H. Although on paper he may have so far sired "only" 5% from N/H mares, this is borderline false advertising!
                    Well, I don't disagree with you here. But lots of people know nothing about genetics (just look at all the color threads that pop up in this forum). It's a really hard subject for people to understand - especially when a figure like 'only 5% are H/H' is bandied about and is actually correct (though not relevant). Literally speaking, a horse could theoretically produce only 5% H/H offspring - what people don't understand is that that figure has no bearing on each and every roll of the genetic dice. Also consider that sometimes ad designers mess up. They could have meant 50%.

                    Second on the ethical level. AQHA has finally taken a stand (although a very laz, and reactive, rather than proactive stand) on HYPP, and as of last year H/H foals may not be registered (cannot remember the year that N/H will not be allowed to be registered, but sometime in the future). So if AQHA took that stand then shouldn't they DISALLOW an N/H to be bred to an N/H?? I mean I think they should track the stallion/mare combination and not issue a breeder's certificate for the breeding as it is inherently wrong to breed with the possibility of an H/H/ foal (ethically it is wrong to produce N/H in my opinion, but by AQHA's own admission H/H is disallowed).
                    How in the world do you expect AQHA to police what people do in their own backyards? That's pretty ridiculous. It's not inherently wrong. It's not what you would do (and it sure as hell isn't what I would do, either!) But inherently wrong? No. They have different goals and different aims for their foals/breeding program than you.

                    Third an economic level. I mean WHO in their right mind would even risk a chance that they would produce an H/H foal???? I mean you end up with an expensive stud fee, shipping semen costs, vet bills to inseminate, cost of upkeep for the mare to produce a foal with basically NO worth as it cannot be registered (which to QH people reg. papers are an absolutel must).
                    Oh I dunno - maybe the fact that we don't live in a socialist, government-breeding-controlled country?? People can spend their money how and when they wish, for better or for worse. Instead of worrying about what other people do, do your best to educate newcomers and breed HYPP N/N foals. Only you can control you And just because you don't find worth in an unregistered foal doesn't mean a) someone else won't, and b) someone else could easily start another association that does accept N/H and H/H horses, in fact I seem to recall reading a website of people that did just that.

                    Is it really worth it to people to care THAT much about what other people do with their breeding programs? Why in the world would you practically get an ulcer over that?? You can make the argument that "well, it's stupid to do "X"", or "it devalues other people's foals", or "they're not registerable" - but the fact is, people will do what they want with their money - and you cannot control that. You can only breed the best foals you personally can, and start them off properly with handling, papers, and selecting the right buyers, and mentor new horse people so that they make appropriate, safe decisions with the knowledge to back it up. That's all you can do.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      i am having a problem with this discussion............i would NOT breed any thing that has a good chance of resulting with an offspring of disabilities........sure.there are are youngsters that have over come major problems,but why take the risk.
                      mm

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Another thought here...................in europe stallions have to pass maojor testing before they are approved as breeding stallions.in my opinion that is wonderful.............
                        mm

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by myrna View Post
                          Another thought here...................in europe stallions have to pass maojor testing before they are approved as breeding stallions.in my opinion that is wonderful.............
                          The stallions that have to pass testing there have to pass testing here as well.
                          Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                          http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Dazednconfused View Post


                            How in the world do you expect AQHA to police what people do in their own backyards? That's pretty ridiculous. It's not inherently wrong. It's not what you would do (and it sure as hell isn't what I would do, either!) But inherently wrong? No. They have different goals and different aims for their foals/breeding program than you.



                            Oh I dunno - maybe the fact that we don't live in a socialist, government-breeding-controlled country?? People can spend their money how and when they wish, for better or for worse. Instead of worrying about what other people do, do your best to educate newcomers and breed HYPP N/N foals. Only you can control you And just because you don't find worth in an unregistered foal doesn't mean a) someone else won't, and b) someone else could easily start another association that does accept N/H and H/H horses, in fact I seem to recall reading a website of people that did just that.
                            WEll, by AQHA's own admission (finally!) it IS inherently wrong. They are taking a stance against HYPP positive individuals, and will refuse registration in the future to ANY positive horses, whether or not homozygous. So yes, they DO have the authority to police (and the responsibility in my opinion) what is done WITHIN THEIR REGISTRY. Why do I "Worry" about what other people do??? Well, because the ad they placed, although not untrue is very very misleading. Much of the public has little to no knowledge of the simple facts of genetics. Heck, there are people out there that believe is a horse has grey in it's ancestors OTHER THAN direct parents, that they might produce a grey foal! I do not think the GOVERNMENT has a durn thing to do with what I stated does it?? I was talking about an INDEPENDENT registry, that should be doing what it is preaching (And AQHA so often preaches but does not act, just look at their show rules, and yet the same hroses win over and over again). I certainly don't want the government poking it's nose into my affairs, but if I choose to go with a registry, I would like that registry to not only MAKE rules, but to enforce them for the betterment of my BREED
                            www.shawneeacres.net

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by RiddleMeThis View Post
                              Pretty much you are more likely to get a deaf foal with splash white horses because of the way there markings form but there is no genetic part to making them deaf. The gene itself does not make them deaf.
                              I have a white mare that carries splash white and overo. At least we think it's splash white in this case...but anyway she has produced a solid white deaf foal to a bay sabino stallion. We wonder now if the stallion was splash white and not sabino. Not sure...she produced a perfectly fine overo filly to the same stallion.

                              So far as I know there is no test yet for splash...all we can do is go by phenotype and what horses have produced to judge who to cross to whom.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Daydream Believer View Post
                                I have a white mare that carries splash white and overo. At least we think it's splash white in this case...but anyway she has produced a solid white deaf foal to a bay sabino stallion. We wonder now if the stallion was splash white and not sabino. Not sure...she produced a perfectly fine overo filly to the same stallion.

                                So far as I know there is no test yet for splash...all we can do is go by phenotype and what horses have produced to judge who to cross to whom.
                                Could have been. And no there is no test and everyones theory is evolving about splash. Do either the mare or stallion have blue eyes(not that it matters to me in terms of proving splash lol)? I would love to see pictures of them if you dont mind.
                                Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                                http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  re: deafness

                                  Is it preferable to have a horse that is not deaf? Of course. Would I not buy a horse because it was deaf? Of course not. Would I breed to a deaf stallion? You bet your butt that if I had a kickin' reining bred mare, she'd be booked to Gunnar so fast your head would spin. Deafness be d@mded, those horses have the BEST personalities, work ethics and flat out talent - qualities I admire in a horse.

                                  As for the comparison to humans... So anyone that is genetically deaf should not have kids? What about those that are blind? Or if they have green eyes? Or red hair? (and I AM NOT saying that blind horses should be bred, as blindness is a much much bigger issue than deafness - just using that to help make the point that you can not compare humans and horses without coming out on the bad end of it...)
                                  Not all who wander are lost.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    re: breeding HYPP horses

                                    HYPP would be long gone if AQHA had stood up for it's HORSES years ago. How stupid and selfish of them to allow it to go on for so many years. And yes, I feel the same about HERDA. Stop it NOW before it becomes rampant and affects more people and horses than it already has.
                                    Not all who wander are lost.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Kinsella View Post
                                      re: breeding HYPP horses

                                      HYPP would be long gone if AQHA had stood up for it's HORSES years ago. How stupid and selfish of them to allow it to go on for so many years. And yes, I feel the same about HERDA. Stop it NOW before it becomes rampant and affects more people and horses than it already has.
                                      Although I don't like the idea of HERDA genes being present in the breed, it is a different situation, in that a heterozygous HERDA carrier has no symptoms at all or otherwise compromised from a health standpoint. It would be ncie to say stop breeding all hroses carrying HERDA< but I suspect you would be getting rid of a LARGE proportion of the QH breed, since it comes from a foundation sire of the breed. So many many horse may be carriers of this. It only creates and issue when two carriers are bred together and create a homozygous foal. So at the least, two carriers should not be bred. Obviously if EVERY QH was tested and EVERY carrier was not allowed to be bred (and that goes for other breeds influenced by Poco Bueno, including APHA and ApHC), one could, in theory, eradicate the gene altogether. I doubt that would or even could happen. As we gain more and more understanding of genetics, we are going to find that MANY afflictions are genetically based, and it will be a difficult situation. Carriers should be advertised as such (as long as it is known) and at least then people will make informed decisions. But I don't feel it is quite such a threat as HYPP, since HYPP manifests itself in either the homozygous or heterozygous individual
                                      www.shawneeacres.net

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        'Plus, we can all have lovely pure white horses (of course many will sight issues also -just give that one a few years for these idiots to figure that out).'


                                        are you referring to fewspots?


                                        Australia has seriouslly led the way on the whole olws front. When the American AQHA changed the excess white rule Australia refused to approve or allow such an asanine and damaging rule to be accepted here. We do allow excess white only after a negative olws test, and all horses that apply for foundation MUST also be approved olws neg.. even those with no white. its a very sensible rule. I am just horrified that America has allowed and encouraged olws pos AQHAs.

                                        re Hypp.. no comment.. the video says it all..
                                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE-kuYDrNEU
                                        www.australiancolouredperformancehorses.com.au

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