• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Discussion: TB type WB stallion X TB mare= improved TB type foal or disaster?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Discussion: TB type WB stallion X TB mare= improved TB type foal or disaster?

    A friend and I were discussing the concept/breeding goal of of producing TB type horses with improvement of conformation, movement, jump, by using modern, refined WB stallions to nice TB mares. I have known breeders of both event horses and hunter/jumper horses that have mentioned such breeding goals.

    So, I have heard, "it doesn't work... two refined horses= poor developed foals... to big of risk" and such. My friend on the other hand was very adamant that breeding a TB to a WB of similar type will increased the odds of a nice foal IF the goal is a TB type foal. Said something about "similar phenotypes", but she couldn't explain what that is.

    So, can we have a discussion of this type of breeding goal and what things to look for in stallion and mare?

    Specifically, we started this conversation, by my friends suggestion of breeding my mare to Boss VDL. So, for an example of the type of stallion for discussion purposes here is a link that includes conformation photo, test scores, and first foal crop evaluations:
    http://hengsten.kwpn.nl/beeld/Offspr...tions_2010.pdf

    His website:
    http://www.vdlstud.com/paard/3/1/120...n/boss-vdl.htm

  • #2
    If you breed 2 horses of different type you risk getting a horse who is put together by committee. Breeding similar type horses will HELP ensure you get something that is more like your goal. Not that breeding two dissimilar horses NEVER works out, sometimes it does. Sometimes you get a nice blend, sometimes you get ahorse that is more like one parent than the other. But often you get a mess.

    You don't want to try and get a huge change in phenotype in one generation. You are correct in IDing what you want from a breeding and then picking two good individuals of the type you want to produce it. You do not want to pick a horse that is MORE refined than you want because you might indeed get one "too refined". But that goes back to not breeding horses that are too dissimilar. Don't count on a stallion or mare making up for anothers shortcomings. Pick only horses that are superior breeding animals not ones just because they are fertile.
    Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

    Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Can someone explain "phenotype" and it's application in breeding?

      Comment


      • #4
        It can work.

        This is my TBxWB mare. She's out of a VERY nice TB mare, sired by a Holsteiner.

        The mare was an exceptional TB mare and the stallion used is a little bit heavier, but not terribly old style.

        The mare DOES play a huge role. Yes, I think breeding programs can be successful using TB mares but the truth is they have to be REALLY nice TBs. I've seen TB crosses sired by the same stallion that are decidedly average at best.

        My coach rides a very fancy imported Hanoverian. He's out of a nice TB dam (so yes, they are doing it in Europe too). Morocco is registered Oldenburg and licensed BWP, Old-NA, and RPSI and competes at FEI levels in Dressage. Lotus T is out of the same TB mare that my mare is out of. He is registered and licensed AHHA. I'm sure there are plenty of others out there.....

        Take a very hard critical look at a TB mare. Most of the OTTBs you'll find on the track won't do anything to help your breeding program - BUT the right mares will be very valuable to help you accomplish your goals.

        I will say that for breeding event horses though, I think you need even more blood... I love my horse. She's wonderful. She's over 50% TB. She's SLOW SLOW SLOW.
        The rebel in the grey shirt

        Comment


        • #5
          How does one rationalize a poor outcome of a TB-style WB stallion on a TB mare, when TB stallions are put to TB mares all the time? That makes absolutely no sense. Or, I simply do not understand the question LOL

          The stallion Gatsby is out of a TB mare, by Gonzo I. So, minimally 50% TB, some % more though I don't know what it is. I've seen his offspring out of TB mares and they are FAR from disasters. Far.
          ______________________________
          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

          Comment


          • #6
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genotyp...pe_distinction

            What you see is only part of the full equation. For some animals they breed very true to thier own type and some don't.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by flyracing View Post
              Specifically, we started this conversation, by my friends suggestion of breeding my mare to Boss VDL. So, for an example of the type of stallion for discussion purposes here is a link that includes conformation photo, test scores, and first foal crop evaluations:
              http://hengsten.kwpn.nl/beeld/Offspr...tions_2010.pdf

              His website:
              http://www.vdlstud.com/paard/3/1/120...n/boss-vdl.htm

              He looks really nice!!!
              The rebel in the grey shirt

              Comment


              • #8
                Simply put - you are trying to produce nice TB type horses that are 3/4 TB or 7/8 TB, right? Sounds like a goal to me, and yes, there are lots of nice animals out there that are mostly TB.
                Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique

                Comment


                • #9
                  I must say that I am confused as well.
                  I just thought that a quality WB of breeds x y and z were a fairly "natural" match to a quality TB?

                  If I were looking to breed, I would naturally look for things in any stallion that I hoped to improve on my mare (realizing that it is all a big crapshoot). The stallions similarly bred get would probably be the deciding factor.

                  But on the other side of the coin I can easily call to mind several breed crosses that don't generally compliment each other. And yes, those are taking one extreme breed and matching it up to the polar opposite breed.
                  INCONCEIVABLE!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I wouldn't think that all WB stallions would work well with TB mares. Some of them lack the same things that Tb's tend to lack. Then some WB stallions do really well (best) with Tb mares.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I've been pleased with the results of our foals out of out TB mares. They are both due to foal full siblings to their last foals this spring. At that point I will be able to see what I liked and what I would like to improve. We sold one and my daughter has decided to keep last years filly, who I will bred once my daughter is in college. By the time she is done she will be ready to go back to work with my daughter. I look forward to one day crossing her with a WB stallion, whether he is full or TB crossed. I personally love the WB/TB cross
                      Worth A Shot Farm
                      Finding the horse of your dreams, is always Worth A Shot!
                      Visit our Website
                      Join us on Facebook
                      Watch us on Youtube

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Two refined horses = poorly developed foal. That was a bit of a silly statement. Means all TB's are poorly developed?

                        I think maybe the biggest thing is to go see your stallions if possible which in the States is a bit more difficult. And be honest about the improvements you need to make to your mare. If your mare has had a few foals to evaluate that is very helpful. Even if those foals were TB you get an idea of what she throws. And the saying is true, if you don't want a carbon copy of your mare, don't breed her. But that's for any mare, not just TB's.

                        Terri
                        COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                        "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Until we know if the target is a Dressage, Hunter or Jumper horse, the question is impossible to answer.
                          "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, And treat those two imposters just the same"
                          Rudyard Kipling
                          Quartz Rouge

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by andy.smaga View Post
                            Until we know if the target is a Dressage, Hunter or Jumper horse, the question is impossible to answer.
                            Very true Andy and something I assumed people would already have that goal in their heads. For any of you who have seen the videos of my warmblood/TB cross I can tell you she is very much her mother's daughter. My TB mare has a fantastic front and more knee action than a typical TB. I do not think she would ever be a mare for breeding hunters. I want to breed jumpers and so that is my goal and have started with a mare with the type I want. And saying these things I'm not saying I got it right but I did start with goals and we shall how it goes.

                            Terri
                            COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                            "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I
                              f you breed 2 horses of different type you risk getting a horse who is put together by committee. Breeding similar type horses will HELP ensure you get something that is more like your goal. Not that breeding two dissimilar horses NEVER works out, sometimes it does. Sometimes you get a nice blend, sometimes you get ahorse that is more like one parent than the other. But often you get a mess.
                              If this were true, the classic Welsh x TB cross wouldn't be as tried and true as it is. Unless there is something about crossing two pure breds, as opposed to a part-bred crossed with a pure bred, which eliminates the risk?
                              www.juniperridgeranch.us
                              Visit us on Facebook!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by sissyfoo View Post
                                I must say that I am confused as well.
                                I just thought that a quality WB of breeds x y and z were a fairly "natural" match to a quality TB?

                                If I were looking to breed, I would naturally look for things in any stallion that I hoped to improve on my mare (realizing that it is all a big crapshoot). The stallions similarly bred get would probably be the deciding factor.

                                But on the other side of the coin I can easily call to mind several breed crosses that don't generally compliment each other. And yes, those are taking one extreme breed and matching it up to the polar opposite breed.
                                Irish Draught(and ID Sport horses and even Connemaras) to TB is one good example.

                                Here's a 2 YO ID X TB
                                http://picasaweb.google.com/carolp32...73142823968338
                                I wasn't always a Smurf
                                Penmerryl Sophie RIDSH
                                "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                                The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  What you are talking about is the breeding goal that created the Selle Francais. The French didn't care whether the TB was top or bottom; what they cared about was the creation of a "TB with substance". The major non TB stallion that was used seemed to have been Vas y Donc, and he was described as Demi Sang or Anglo Norman. What I think he probably was was TB mixed with what is now called French Trotter. Then they added the Anglo Arab which was historically the homebred French version of the TB. Their breeding started about the same time as the creation of the English TB--in the reign of Louis XIV. As guns brought a different type of horsed warrior, horses were created to match the new warfare.

                                  It worked for them. It can work for us.
                                  Last edited by vineyridge; Jan. 29, 2011, 11:02 AM.
                                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Phenotype is the outcome. It is what you see. The final expression of the genes. Genotype is the genetic code, it is what is there, but can't be seen. Not all genes express themselves, so genetics can be passed on to offspring that don't represent themselves in the parent. The reason we talk about this is the basis of your question. We can't look at what we see and think that is what we are going to get. We must pay attention to what genes will be passed on. So, most here know I don't think TB mares should be bred to WB stallions and this is a good example why. The stallion you have pointed to describes the best mare as one that needs blood. They are referring to a WB mare not a TB. They also are not talking about the physical type, but the action and mind. Indoctro/Nimmerdor is not going to give you TB type. The Silbersee adds hotness and this stallion likely breeds with it.

                                    Andy asked the right question, to what end. If you are breeding for a Hunter, this would be the absolutely wrong choice of stallion for hunters unless your mare has a very good mind. He does throw flat movement, but flat in the WB way.

                                    All true warmblood(not out of TB mares) will improve bone and topline. You could however get a WB body on TB legs, and that could be a disaster. The more blooded the stallion breeds in TYPE the safer you are that you won't get this problem, which is seen often with crosses. You must ask how they breed(genotype), not how they stand(phenotype).

                                    Tim
                                    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
                                    www.sparlingrock.com

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by carolprudm View Post
                                      Irish Draught(and ID Sport horses and even Connemaras) to TB is one good example.

                                      Here's a 2 YO ID X TB
                                      http://picasaweb.google.com/carolp32...73142823968338
                                      Happy healthy horses. Very sweet pics!

                                      I have a soft spot for Connemaras and am a HUGE fan of the Irish crosses in general. Sane, sturdy and IMO very cute.

                                      Course, that may be my own breeding at play-I'm an Irish cross myself
                                      INCONCEIVABLE!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Tim we get where you are coming from but you'd be surprised that TB mares are not as taboo as they once were. I'm not seeing this huge problem of big warmblood bodies on TB legs that I've heard for ages. Actuall went to see a stunning stallion yesterday that has the same bone as my TB mare. They are getting lighter and more modern, the stallions. Anyway doesn't matter. I'm not breeding for the olympics and I'm not breeding crap. And I do have clear goals in mind as should any breeder.

                                        Terri
                                        COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                                        "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X