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A step in the right direction

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  • A step in the right direction

    This is for Fairview and Tri who are interested in helping breeders to unify for tracking and marketing purposes .
    This week I received our 2007 foals life recording cards from the USEF. This is the result of a program which the BWP/NAD started this year to use part of our registration funds to life record and DNA test all of the foals that we register. This card will go with the passport and the number will remain with the horse as long as he or she shows in the USA. No matter how many name changes the horse has , the number will never change. Therefore breeders will be able to track their horses through their performance careers.
    The BWP/NAD is starting a data base and this move is preparatory to that .
    Now if each registry and organization would do this then it would enable us to track results performance wise very easily.I feel that this would also help to bring the various entities together.
    Allyn McCracken
    Sport Horse Breeder
    www.bannockburnfarmllc.com

  • #2
    Originally posted by Allyn M View Post
    This is for Fairview and Tri who are interested in helping breeders to unify for tracking and marketing purposes .
    This week I received our 2007 foals life recording cards from the USEF. This is the result of a program which the BWP/NAD started this year to use part of our registration funds to life record and DNA test all of the foals that we register. This card will go with the passport and the number will remain with the horse as long as he or she shows in the USA. No matter how many name changes the horse has , the number will never change. Therefore breeders will be able to track their horses through their performance careers.
    Now if each registry and organization would do this then it would enable us to track results performance wise very easily.I feel that this would also help to bring the various entities together.
    What if the horse is sold and re-recorded with USEF under a new name?
    I'd like to understand how this ensures that the USEF # will stay the same. Or maybe I misinterpreted what you meant?
    Fan of Sea Accounts

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      It is my understanding that as long as the owners keep the papers and shows the horse under his life number it won't matter how the name changes . They won't have to keep re recording him either.
      However if some unscrupulous owner or trainer wishes to throw the horse's registration papers away and say they found him in a farmer's field there is not much that can be done . This is a method of keeping track of horses performance records ,but I guess it only applies to the honest .
      Allyn McCracken
      Sport Horse Breeder
      www.bannockburnfarmllc.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Allyn M View Post
        It is my understanding that as long as the owners keep the papers and shows the horse under his life number it won't matter how the name changes . They won't have to keep re recording him either.
        However if some unscrupulous owner or trainer wishes to throw the horse's registration papers away and say they found him in a farmer's field there is not much that can be done . This is a method of keeping track of horses performance records ,but I guess it only applies to the honest .
        Looking at the top 20% on points for USEF Hunter lists about 35% of recorded horses are missing all or part of the pedigree information. If you look further down the lists that percentage probably increases. Only a very small percent even have breeder info and those horses are usually imports or TB's.

        There are threads every week asking to 'name my new horse'.

        Although you are correct they won't have to keep re-recording the horse they will have to pay a transfer fee of $60 for each transfer of ownership. If they want to change the name that's another $60.

        If they want to start from scratch they can get an annual recording for $75 without all the bother of the paperwork that is required for an ownership change. Or better still, a free HID.

        USEF doesn't ID horses.

        So unless USEF reduces transfer and name change fees not much will change. Nice idea though.
        Fan of Sea Accounts

        Comment


        • #5
          That is the problem. Not only is it cheaper to re-record with a new number, many people actually WANT to "lose" the history. Until the USEF REQUIRES some proof of who the horse is, we will never have a good tracking program. Also, like Pine Tree Farm said, a new HID is free. Many, many people have no intention of showing for points, so why bother with recording them.

          I personally know of several horses that have won classes in Hunters & Hunter breeding, but not a single one has any points recorded for my stallion. They show with name changes and HIDs. Their owners did tell me about the wins, and I could see the results online, so that is how I know about them, but they will never show up in a USEF database.

          The BWP/NAD tried to help once before by putting their horses in the PHR too. They try but I just can't see it really helping. Registries would have to make arrangements with all of the show secretaries in all disciplines across the US to send results to them, and that is just not going to happen.

          The only way it is going to happen is with power in numbers to put pressure on the USEF to REQUIRE one number, and PROOF of who the horse is before issuing a number. PLUS pressure on the USEF to track ALL classes. Much of the Hunter base is showing in classes that are not tracked.

          Comment


          • #6
            I was of the ignorant assumption that a horses registration number went with them everywhere. Is this not true? How many numbers can one horse have?

            I know my stallion has many numbers depending on who is registrering his offspring. But I thought they all led back to one number. I also thought no matter where his offspring are registered, it would all lead back to his original registry.

            So now it appears he may have offspring with diffent numbers that will never lead back to him? This must be changed!
            Chris Misita
            www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net Home of Bravo and Warrick!
            To dare; progress comes at this price. All sublime conquests are, more or less, the rewards of daring.
            Victor Hugo

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by misita View Post
              I was of the ignorant assumption that a horses registration number went with them everywhere. Is this not true? How many numbers can one horse have?

              I know my stallion has many numbers depending on who is registrering his offspring. But I thought they all led back to one number. I also thought no matter where his offspring are registered, it would all lead back to his original registry.

              So now it appears he may have offspring with diffent numbers that will never lead back to him? This must be changed!
              Horses can have LOTS of numbers. My mares have different numbers with each European Registry they are approved with, and different numbers with the USEF, USDF, etc. and no way to tie them together.

              Comment


              • #8
                I know they have different numbers with USDF, USEF, ISR, GOV, CWHBA, and so on and so forth. I thought all these numbers led back to the same number. They all ask for the horses original numbers. Bravo is registered with so many different places, I honestly wouldn't even know how to figure it out without doing quite a bit of research! It's been almost a full time job just to get him approved with these different registries!
                Chris Misita
                www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net Home of Bravo and Warrick!
                To dare; progress comes at this price. All sublime conquests are, more or less, the rewards of daring.
                Victor Hugo

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  OK .... Let's analyze this for a minute........ Let's skip the Jockey Club even addressing the idea of TBs doing anything but racing so therefore any registered TB is never going to get a USEF life number when he is a foal. Would you agree that most of the hunters at the lower levels are TB's ?? Would you agree that most of those TBs were on the track at one time or at least bred for the track ?? IMHO there are very few Jockey Club registered TBs actually bred for sport as here in the midwest it is a quick road to bankruptcy. Those folks would be the only ones interested in a life number for their horses so we are talking about the warmblood registries that are breeding for sport.
                  TB's only allow one name per horse so that gives some of those poor racing horses some pretty strange names. I know we have a lovely black 17hh TB mare named Jace Goes Beep Beep and I would not think of letting some announcer tackle that.So given that we are only talking about Warmbloods and the original owner gets a horse with papers and a life number what are the reasons ( Ethical ) that anyone would want to make drastic changes in fruther recording ??
                  Allyn McCracken
                  Sport Horse Breeder
                  www.bannockburnfarmllc.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There are many different breeds and crosses in the hunters, including a lot of Warmblood. Many breeders are already paying the $35 to life record their babies with the USEF, but then they sell them.

                    The NEW owners would rather show with a free HID #, and not pay to transfer ownership and name. I sell horses and they all get name changes. Cheyenne is being shown as Annie. Savannah is being shown as Anna. Denali is being shown as Denny. They are being shown at Recognized shows, with a HID, and not tracked.

                    Later, if those horses do begin to be shown in divisions that owners want to track them, they will just upgrade their HID, not go back to pay to change owner and name on their birth/breeders lifetime number.

                    It is also much better for selling purposes to not have a record of failures. Better too to "lose" a history on a horse - esp in this lawsuit crazy world, than to have someone track a previous owner that could say, he was lame when I sold him to the person you bought him from. I sold a horse with a healed fracture. I disclosed it to the buyer, but he has now changed hands several times, and I wonder if they know his history? or if he will simply get lost?
                    Last edited by Fairview Horse Center; Mar. 2, 2008, 08:39 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Allyn M View Post
                      OK .... Let's analyze this for a minute........ Let's skip the Jockey Club even addressing the idea of TBs doing anything but racing so therefore any registered TB is never going to get a USEF life number when he is a foal.

                      Would you agree that most of the hunters at the lower levels are TB's ?? Would you agree that most of those TBs were on the track at one time or at least bred for the track ?? IMHO there are very few Jockey Club registered TBs actually bred for sport ... Those folks would be the only ones interested in a life number for their horses so we are talking about the warmblood registries that are breeding for sport.

                      TB's only allow one name per horse so that gives some of those poor racing horses some pretty strange names. ...So given that we are only talking about Warmbloods and the original owner gets a horse with papers and a life number what are the reasons ( Ethical ) that anyone would want to make drastic changes in fruther recording ??
                      1)You are incorrect on your first assumption. Gasp!!! There are TB's bred for sport and they do get Life USEF numbers as a foal and they are JC recorded.

                      2) I'm not sure what you mean by lower levels. Do you mean USEF zone Hunter levels? At the 3'6" and above hunter levels the predominant breed listed is 'Dutch'. Sometimes listed as a variation like 'Dutch Warmblood' or 'KWPN'. And as I mentioned earlier there is certain percent of these horses that have no pedigree info recorded with USEF. The next largest breed is the generic 'Warmblood'. This group usually does not have any pedigree info recorded. But what the heck, Dutch and Warmblood are 'hot' so that's the breed that gets listed. TB's are way further down the list. However if you add the TB and the TB/Warmblood crosses it's still a significant number. It would appear that the majority of the TB/Warmblood crosses are not recorded with any registry. If they are it's not specified. I'm pretty sure those non-registry TB/Warmblood crosses were bred for sport. At the zone level the picture is much different. TB's make up the largest segment followed by 'Dutch'. Next is TB/Warmblood cross. But there are also AQHA, Cleveland Bay, Welsh, Welsh/TB, Paint, Draft, Unknown, TB/Conn, Conn etc. Some of which are likely to not have a lifetime number.

                      3) Some Warmblood have names that well, they just are awful. Many of the name change threads describe the horse in question as a Warmblood.

                      I don't think it's an ethics problem to change a name you just hate.

                      USEF recently added a new function to their web site. It allows you to search an individual horse show record. It goes back to 2005 I think. This function also lists records for non USEF rated sections. So you now can find out results for things like Low Hunter, Modified whatever. The horse DOES have to have a USEF recording number ( not a HID ). So that's progress ( It also makes it very easy to verify claims made by SO's about their guy's show results).

                      Remember that as hard as it may be to understand, Warmblood horses are are not the only horses covered by recording rules. All those other breeds like Hackneys, Saddlehorses, etc. are subject to recording with USEF. The big difference is that the other breeds are really Breeds and have one registry to set any specific requirements such as a copy of registry papers
                      being sent to USEF along with the request to record with USEF. And of course, there is no requirement that a horse be a certain Breed to show in Hunter,Jumper,Dressage or Eventing, etc. So maybe if there was a central registry or organization representing Warmblood breeders you might be able to make papers required for horses being recorded as a warmblood 'breed'. Till that happens the odds of a horse continuing through it's career with USEF using the same name/number aren't that great.
                      Fan of Sea Accounts

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Pinetree...Now I'm totally confused!!! So my horse who I've had registered with USEF and USDF since 2004, what will be his registerd number? But what of his babies? who are registered with their registry, USEF, and USDF? Who are they registered with?
                        Chris Misita
                        www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net Home of Bravo and Warrick!
                        To dare; progress comes at this price. All sublime conquests are, more or less, the rewards of daring.
                        Victor Hugo

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Gasp!!! It was not individuals raising TBs for sport horses obtaining life numbers to whom I was referring. It was the Jockey Club .
                          Secondly referring to horses as Dutch , German , Belgian ,Selle Francais has nothing to do with keeping track of which horses are doing what as for the most part they are using stallions from all of the registries so the breeding is important not the registry. What you need to know as a breeder is what is tracked by the WBFSH and that will give you the exact breeding of the sport horses showing. All you need to do to see where this is important is to go to Spruce Meadows and read their day sheet or go to a European horse show and read their electronic boards to see what is possible.
                          The reason for all of this is so a long term breeder can track which of his mares is providing the best horse for which sport division. Of course it is not the USEFs position to help us with this ,but the changes that come about within their data base will help.
                          I never said that changing a bad name is unethical ,but I am sure you are aware of some of the practices involving the hunter discipline and their green status that are unethical.

                          Lets look at it this way ....... All I said to begin with was that it was a step in the right direction. That's the way changes begin . Nothing happens overnight . I firmly believe that within the next few years the comission charged for horses will become regulated in many states and several years ago no one could have imagined that .
                          Allyn McCracken
                          Sport Horse Breeder
                          www.bannockburnfarmllc.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Dropping the I.D. so a horse can become much younger so the selling price can be much higher is a negative incentive and one which works given the current lack of consistent tracking.
                            Anne
                            -------
                            "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Allyn M View Post
                              Gasp!!! It was not individuals raising TBs for sport horses obtaining life numbers to whom I was referring. It was the Jockey Club .
                              Secondly referring to horses as Dutch , German , Belgian ,Selle Francais has nothing to do with keeping track of which horses are doing what as for the most part they are using stallions from all of the registries so the breeding is important not the registry. What you need to know as a breeder is what is tracked by the WBFSH and that will give you the exact breeding of the sport horses showing. All you need to do to see where this is important is to go to Spruce Meadows and read their day sheet or go to a European horse show and read their electronic boards to see what is possible.
                              The reason for all of this is so a long term breeder can track which of his mares is providing the best horse for which sport division. Of course it is not the USEFs position to help us with this ,but the changes that come about within their data base will help.
                              I never said that changing a bad name is unethical ,but I am sure you are aware of some of the practices involving the hunter discipline and their green status that are unethical.

                              Lets look at it this way ....... All I said to begin with was that it was a step in the right direction. That's the way changes begin . Nothing happens overnight . I firmly believe that within the next few years the comission charged for horses will become regulated in many states and several years ago no one could have imagined that .
                              Whatever.
                              Most folks showing hunters have no interest in the WBFSH.
                              There haven't been any changes within the USEF database.
                              Any breeder could accomplish the same thing by recording all their foals themselves.
                              Not that it would do them much good.
                              Fan of Sea Accounts

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Allyn M View Post
                                The BWP/NAD is starting a data base and this move is preparatory to that. Now if each registry and organization would do this then it would enable us to track results performance wise very easily.
                                Even IF every horse in America had a number with their registry, and ALL began a database, just what information will they be including in their database? WHERE will they GET it?!?!?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Allyn M View Post
                                  What you need to know as a breeder is what is tracked by the WBFSH and that will give you the exact breeding of the sport horses showing.
                                  I guarantee that it will not show the mare in CA that is winning in Dressage Young Rider classes. It will also not show the gelding in VA with Hunter Championships, nor the mare in MD winning in Hunter Breeding. That IS what is important, to track the bread and butter horses in the US.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    The warmblood registries don't even share the information that they DO have in their databases with each other. Can you imagine the ISR/Oldna sharing information with the Old Verband? Not going to happen.

                                    Until the warmblood registries get their acts together, nothing will happen and the warmblood registries have no interest in getting their acts together, they are only very interested in playing in their own little tiny private sandboxes.

                                    Misita, I am not sure what you are asking. When you say, you thought it all went back to one number, what number are you referring? The USEF number? His original wb registration number?

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      This goes waaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy beyond whether or not the registries talk to each other. I had a registered, DNA tested, lifetime recorded with USEF horse "sold" last year. The new trainer and owner wanted to keep her on trial for a bit before I could cash the check.
                                      • They changed her name while she was on trial.
                                      • The showed her under the 'new name'.
                                      • They wanted me to nominate her for the Young Jumpers with the new name before I even cashed the check.
                                      • They wanted to reregister with USEF.
                                      • I guess they also wanted to throw away her Irish Passport.
                                      The deal fell through. I'm glad because now she's lifetime recorded and she's nominated with Young Jumpers under her registered name. If they don't like the name - and talk about strange names, how about TB names?? Stormin' Rip, there's Kitty, Kitty and Kitty Kitty Kitty. There's Comin' Round the Bend, there's .. . . . ... . . . but if they don't like it, change the show name, not the registered name!!

                                      This will never change unless and until all horses are tatooed (although that can be changed - but it's difficult) or microchipped for permanent identification. Change the show name all you want, but don't touch the papers and registered name! All horses should be scanned at shows and for pre-purchase exams.
                                      Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
                                      Now apparently completely invisible!

                                      Comment

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