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Color people. :) Breeding a Chestnut stallion to pinto mare

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  • Color people. :) Breeding a Chestnut stallion to pinto mare

    Hello,

    I have a dark bay pinto mare, who is by a pinto stallion (Art Deco) and out of a red bay mare. The stallion is chestnut stallion who is by/out of two chestnut horses.


    SO, help me day dream about the possiblities.
    *Better to have loved than to have never loved at all.*
    ALWAYS Blessings NEVER losses.

  • #2
    Without knowing if your mare is homozygous for black:

    29.17% -
    Bay Tobiano
    29.17% -
    Bay
    16.67% -
    Chestnut Tobiano
    16.67% -
    Chestnut
    4.17% -
    Black Tobiano
    4.17% -
    Black

    Hope the baby is healthy and beautiful no matter what the color!
    We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson

    Comment


    • #3
      To complicate things a bit further - there is a theory with strong evidence that in warmbloods particularly that the tobiano gene is pretty well attached to the black gene, so it is really quite unlikely you will get a chestnut tobiano...probably only black or bay tobiano.

      Comment


      • #4
        so how come you can get chestnut tobiano warmbloods?
        www.volatis.co.uk - breeders of quality and colour

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Sacha View Post
          so how come you can get chestnut tobiano warmbloods?
          Imagine you have a deck of 52 cards and you're shuffling them and then dividing them in half. Now imagine there's a bit of syrup between 2 of the cards More often than not, the two will end up together...but there's always the chance that they'll get separated, giving you a situation where black-based tobiano might pass on the tobiano gene without the attendant black gene. I don't understand it that well myself.
          Disclaimer: My mom told me that people might look at my name and think I had an addiction other than horses. I don't; his name was Bravado.

          Comment


          • #6
            I also have an Art Deco mare (black and white) and I will - I'm almost decided now - be breeding to a chestnut stallion. The color game is so much fun! I have a few less variables than you though - I know she does not carry chestnut (tested by UCDavis) and I know that he does carry black (his dam is black). I am hoping for another black-and-white...

            Your mare definitely carries black (since Art Deco is black-based) and may or may not carry chestnut, so you've got all sorts of options. Since he has chestnut parents, you don't know if the stallion carries black or not.

            If the mare carries chestnut and the stallion carries black, you could end up with any of the options: chestnut, bay, bay pinto, black, black pinto.
            If the mare doesn't carry chestnut: bay, bay pinto, black, black pinto.
            If the stallion doesn't carry black: chestnut, bay, bay pinto
            If the mare doesn't carry chestnut and the stallion doesn't carry black: bay or bay pinto are the only options.

            Do you know any more about the colors of the grandparents? Perhaps we could narrow the options down a bit more, or at least get more precise about the probabilities.

            I love mendelian genetics!

            Comment


            • #7
              Chestnut horses can't carry black. Black is dominant over red. If they inherited the black gene, they would be black/bay based, not chestnut.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sacha View Post
                so how come you can get chestnut tobiano warmbloods?
                No Tina D in the pedigree?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Nope, chestnut is epistatic to bay/black, which means it masks bay or black. It is recessive, so you need two copies of the chestnut gene in order to get a chestnut horse, but if you do have these two copies of the chestnut gene then it masks the effect of the agouti gene (which controls bay/black).

                  AaEE, AaEe, AAEE, AAEe = bay
                  aaEE, aaEe = black
                  Aaee, AAee = chestnut masking bay (horse appears chestnut)
                  aaee = chestnut masking black (horse still appears chestnut)

                  The reason behind this (as far as I understand) is that with the recessive form of the extension gene (ee) then the horse produces red pigment only. With the dominant form (EE or Ee) the horse produces black pigment only. (The brown color on a bay's body is diluted black pigment, not red.) So it does not matter whether the horse is genetically black (aa) or bay (AA or Aa), either way, if he has ee at the extension locus then he produces red pigment only and appears chestnut.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seramisu View Post
                    The reason behind this (as far as I understand) is that with the recessive form of the extension gene (ee) then the horse produces red pigment only. With the dominant form (EE or Ee) the horse produces black pigment only. (The brown color on a bay's body is diluted black pigment, not red.) So it does not matter whether the horse is genetically black (aa) or bay (AA or Aa), either way, if he has ee at the extension locus then he produces red pigment only and appears chestnut.
                    The brown of a bay's coat is caused by alternating bands of red and black, which is controlled by the agouti gene. Genotype on the extension locus does not affect the horse's ability to produce phaeomelanin.
                    Disclaimer: My mom told me that people might look at my name and think I had an addiction other than horses. I don't; his name was Bravado.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks for the clarification BravAddict - I didn't realize that.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        WOW...so much fun!!

                        Okay, dam Freckles:

                        She is black bay pinto
                        Her dam is Bay her dams dam, Chestnut, her dams sire bay.
                        Her sire is Black pinto sire's sire is bay pinto, dam ? anyone know?

                        The stallion
                        Chestnut, both dam and sire for 2 generations...all chestnuts, and then bays.

                        So much fun.

                        SO, you have the best chance for a pinto.

                        OH, the stallion normally throws lots of chrome, at least when I bred him to her dam. Thinking he has a sobiano gene. Does that add more to the chances of pinto?
                        *Better to have loved than to have never loved at all.*
                        ALWAYS Blessings NEVER losses.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seramisu View Post
                          Nope, chestnut is epistatic to bay/black, which means it masks bay or black.
                          Chestnut does not mask anything.
                          It is recessive, so you need two copies of the chestnut gene in order to get a chestnut horse, but if you do have these two copies of the chestnut gene then it masks the effect of the agouti gene (which controls bay/black).
                          It doesnt mask agouti. Agouti only effects black pigment so on a chestnut horse there is no effect.

                          AaEE, AaEe, AAEE, AAEe = bay
                          aaEE, aaEe = black
                          Aaee, AAee = chestnut masking bay (horse appears chestnut)
                          aaee = chestnut masking black (horse still appears chestnut)
                          Again chestnut does not mask black. A chestnut horse does not even have a black gene to be masked
                          Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                          http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sacha View Post
                            so how come you can get chestnut tobiano warmbloods?
                            Because Tobi doesn't always attach to E, and even if/when it does, it is possible for that attachment to break, allowing for e and T to be passed together.

                            And, you can't forget about the eeTT horse
                            ______________________________
                            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              A chestnut horse can not have a black gene. They can carry & pass on Agouti.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I *believe* it is the Dutch lines that tend to have the black tied to the tobi, no?

                                So you can have red pinto WB's getting the colour from somewhere else--there used to be many more pinto Trakehners, for example, now very few. But the Samber based Pintos (Dutch) tend to be black or bay when they get the tobi, and red solid.
                                InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by pintopiaffe View Post
                                  I *believe* it is the Dutch lines that tend to have the black tied to the tobi, no?

                                  So you can have red pinto WB's getting the colour from somewhere else--there used to be many more pinto Trakehners, for example, now very few. But the Samber based Pintos (Dutch) tend to be black or bay when they get the tobi, and red solid.
                                  Yes it is the Dutch lines.
                                  Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                                  http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Any chestnut pintos that you see that have Art Deco or Hall of Fame get it from the dam - IF she's a chestnut pinto, AND passes it on. Deco does have a red gene, so you can get his red and the dam's red/tobi and get a red tobiano, but not from Deco himself.
                                    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
                                    Now apparently completely invisible!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Tiki View Post
                                      Any chestnut pintos that you see that have Art Deco or Hall of Fame get it from the dam - IF she's a chestnut pinto, AND passes it on. Deco does have a red gene, so you can get his red and the dam's red/tobi and get a red tobiano, but not from Deco himself.
                                      About to make this much more complicated. They could have techincally gotten it from Art Deco. Albeit highly unlikely it is possibly.
                                      Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                                      http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        They have to get the chestnut gene from both parents. Each parent gives the baby a base color gene. If one gives the black gene, the foal will be bay/black/(buckskin if dilute present). A chestnut has 2 copies of the red gene. They may also get the agouti for bay, but since there is no black to work on, it does nothing, but still could be passed along to a foal with a black gene from the other parent.

                                        Comment

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