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Report from the USAE Breeders Committee

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  • Report from the USAE Breeders Committee

    USAE Committee Chair Denny Emerson has asked me to post frequent updates here to generate some dialog and get some feedback about Breeders Committee programs and issues. If you want to get a message to the committee you can send it to me at cmfrank@equestrian.org.

    BREEDERS E-MAIL NEWSLETTER: We will be adding a guestbook to the PHR site so that you can receive email updates about issues of interest to breeders. Until that is finished, you can send your email address to me and I'll keep you 'in the loop.'

    BREEDERS SYMPOSIUM: As most of you know, the Event Horse Breeders Symposium was a great success and we are planning to do it again next year. The committee is also looking for ways to encourage similar programs for different breeds and disciplines. Alan Balch has voiced an interest in hosting one at the Metropolitan National and one at the National in Las Vegas. What do you breeders think?

    YOUNG HORSE DEVELOPMENT: Last week The Chronicle ran the press release about the horses short-listed for the World Breeding Championships for Young Dressage Horses. The sad truth is that most of the owners of those young horses can't or won't consider the journey to Verden because of the cost. In it's last meeting, the Breeders Committee discussed the formation of an earmarked fund for Young Horse Development through the USAE's existing Torchbearer Program. This would enable breeders, breed registries and sponsors to make tax-deductible donations specifically dedicated to the development of young competition horses.
  • Original Poster

    #2
    USAE Committee Chair Denny Emerson has asked me to post frequent updates here to generate some dialog and get some feedback about Breeders Committee programs and issues. If you want to get a message to the committee you can send it to me at cmfrank@equestrian.org.

    BREEDERS E-MAIL NEWSLETTER: We will be adding a guestbook to the PHR site so that you can receive email updates about issues of interest to breeders. Until that is finished, you can send your email address to me and I'll keep you 'in the loop.'

    BREEDERS SYMPOSIUM: As most of you know, the Event Horse Breeders Symposium was a great success and we are planning to do it again next year. The committee is also looking for ways to encourage similar programs for different breeds and disciplines. Alan Balch has voiced an interest in hosting one at the Metropolitan National and one at the National in Las Vegas. What do you breeders think?

    YOUNG HORSE DEVELOPMENT: Last week The Chronicle ran the press release about the horses short-listed for the World Breeding Championships for Young Dressage Horses. The sad truth is that most of the owners of those young horses can't or won't consider the journey to Verden because of the cost. In it's last meeting, the Breeders Committee discussed the formation of an earmarked fund for Young Horse Development through the USAE's existing Torchbearer Program. This would enable breeders, breed registries and sponsors to make tax-deductible donations specifically dedicated to the development of young competition horses.

    Comment


    • #3
      Cheryl, this is a fabulous idea! These young horses, at least once we get US bred and foaled horses at this level, represent the United States and US breeding. They will actually represent the United States just as much as our Olympic and other international teams. This is wonderful news!

      Tranquility Farm
      We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice
      Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
      Now apparently completely invisible!

      Comment


      • #4
        I am glad some new inventive ideas are being brought forth. That is the way we improve and make changes.
        As far as the Breeders Symposium I live on the Western side of the states. I don't know about the National in Las Vegas; maybe if it offered tripple HB points it would draw the quality horses and participants.
        I will reiterate my earlier idea of holding a Hunter Breeding symposium at the IHF events. That way you will be assured of a good turn out of quality horses and interested people.
        If the symposium is held in Las Vegas I will go. But I am not sure I would take horses.

        I am not involved with young dressage prospects but I am in favor of any program that helps get our US bred/trained horses into the world limelight so I would support that idea/plan.
        Camille Greer
        Darkhorse Farm

        [This message was edited by DARKHORSE on Jun. 27, 2003 at 10:16 PM.]

        Comment


        • #5
          That is fantastic!

          Can you make a donation for funds earmarked for a particular horse?
          __________________________________________________ ________
          \"The point of horse shows is to eat $9 hamburgers while wearing wool in summer.\" -me

          Comment


          • #6
            CMFrank - There already are Breeders Seminars put on by the various Warmblood registries that address Dressage and Jumping - why doesn't the USAE work with and through the Federation of North American Sporthorse Registries? After all it represents all of the major breeding groups.

            Also I do respect Denny Emerson - just had my 8 yo in an Event Camp with him - but he's really over the top in his criticism of North American Breeders. In fact - tell him from me - I feel the smoke come out of my ears when he makes the absolutely inaccurate statement that the NA breeders don't know enough about bloodlines. I don't know who he is talking about. Yes there are breeders all over the US who may breed one mare every year or so who just do what they want - but PROFESSIONAL BREEDERS cannot afford to do this AND WE DON'T. I'll sit down and talk bloodlines with him any times he wants but constantly insulting N.A. Breeders is not a good start to building a stronger and unified approach!!!

            Regarding the Young Horse Championships it would be nice to have some Corporate sponsors step forward to do a "Match Program" - i.e. dollar for dollar for private money raised. Good publicity for them - advertising as well and it would get the ball rolling on setting up a fund for this.

            BTW - Many of the warmblood registries are members of the World Breeding Federation - the USAE - should be lobbying hard to get the US as a site in the future for the Young Horse Championships.....after all Europe isn't the World (even though they think they are when it comes to horses)!!!
            Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
            "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              I think what Denny is really trying to say is we don't have enough information about bloodlines in this country, therefore our breeders are relying heavily on European models. Since we have not had a pedigree/performance correlation for the US, we have assumed that what works for Europe works here--but the truth is, we really don't know.

              Young Horse Development--Creating an earmarked fund within the Torchbearer program would give us an attractive vehicle to recruit corporate sponsors. As far as the World Breeding Championships go--I don't believe they move from one location to another in Europe, so I don't see how we would host them in the U.S. until the FEI and the WBFSH open the hosting up to bids.

              Federation of NA Sport Horse Registries--We work very closely with the Federation on many projects--one of which is the establishment of a WBFSH championship program for NA. This proposal has been on the table for 2 years now. We're still waiting for the Federation to define the criteria.

              Comment


              • #8
                " think what Denny is really trying to say is we don't have enough information about bloodlines in this country, therefore our breeders are relying heavily on European models. Since we have not had a pedigree/performance correlation for the US, we have assumed that what works for Europe works here--but the truth is, we really don't know."

                This is so frustrating to read. First of all, if we don't acknowledge breeders and we assume
                people such as Denny and others (breeders who are stallion owners) we are NEVER going to get ANYWHERE. We need a collaberative (sp?) effort of ALL breeders of ALL disciplines to have input. I think we know more than it appears we know but haven't ever tapped into the knowledge and information that is readily available.

                I.E go to the thread I started about breeder recognition.

                Now, tell me why is it that even on the breeders committees and Hunter Breeding committees we don't have presently active BREEDERS?

                I am sorry but in the US we are our own worst enemies. The politically correct, the monetary advantaged parties have the most say in what goes on in our sport, not neccessarily the most
                educated.

                The worst part of it all is about the time most of us think we are getting somewhere we are so frustrated and exhausted in the lack of payoff of any kind we give up and end the breeding part of the business.

                Come on, even the IHF programs the reward and acknowledgement goes to the sire and the owner.
                NOT THE BREEDER.

                Is it all bloodline knowledge that makes good breeding choices, I think not. Isn't some of it the "knack" of breeding "type" to "type"?

                When we focus on broodmare breeders instead of stallion owning breeders, we are going to find out it isn't just bloodlines that make a great one. Things like conformation and heart, and attitude and movement and jumping ability matter to me more than whether it is a Northern Dancer line etc. ERGH

                Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ
                Owner/Trainer of http://www.plumstedequestrianctr.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Ms. Hunter THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. What "Oscar Meyer" bolognA that we dont' know bloodlines. The problem is we know them inside out but the BUYERS in this country glaze over when we even start to talk about it. Denny needs to get out more and actually meet BREEDERS. He also needs to stop thinking thank non-TB horses are a waste of space. I have TB in every single horse I breed and even some in the ponies. I believe in the breed but I don't "X" out a breed - I evaluate the horse.

                  We can also study bloodlines and understand what works and what doesn't. Don't kid yourself we know the "nut case" lines in both the TB's and the WB's - but you know what??? We still see them used. Often becuase some Big Name who had ONE horse by that line endorses the line. We also need to separate some of these breeding approaches from whether or not we want horses that Just win on the line and never see the performance world - at all!

                  If the USAE really wants to help breeders - make our identity mandetory on ALL SHOW ENTRIES. This does a great service to both the breeders and the buyers. You can see who produces performance horses and you can see who doesn't!! Sure makes the selection process much easier when you know which breeder to call on the phone for a young prospect doesn't it??

                  Most of the breeders who hang in with this profession know the nicks that work but we also aren't afraid to occasionally break new ground to see if some new crosses will as well. We aren't cavalier about it - after all WE get the result of the cross and usually have to carry the foal through a certain age - so mistakes are costly.

                  Stallion owners are NOT the only breeders in this country (or any country) - in fact they aren't even the majority - but they get the majority of press and accolades. Those of us out here with great mares who keep these stallion owners in business are producing foals of equal quality - but for us to get recognition we usually have to take a PAID advertisement in a horse publication or post it on the BB's OURSELVES! As a percentage of total foals produced many of the small & medium breeders (without stallions) are producing a higher # of premium and top performance offspring!!
                  Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
                  "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Question? What American bred horses, specifically bred for sport, and not a race track cast off(like Touch of Class) has been on a USET team in the past 25 years or so? The 3 that I can think of are Gem Twist, Bruce`s Babamist son at Atlanta, name escapes me, and Bally Cor.
                    What are some others? These are the statistics that make me question whether we collectively know enough.
                    If you can show me statistical evidence to the contrary, I`ll most gladly revise my opinions.
                    If we know what we`re doing, why do our very best competitors so often look elsewhere? Why???
                    Denny
                    http://www.tamarackhill.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      posted Jun. 27, 2003 11:30 AM
                      Question? What American bred horses, specifically bred for sport, and not a race track cast off(like Touch of Class) has been on a USET team in the past 25 years or so? The 3 that I can think of are Gem Twist, Bruce`s Babamist son at Atlanta, name escapes me, and Bally Cor.
                      What are some others? These are the statistics that make me question whether we collectively know enough.
                      If you can show me statistical evidence to the contrary, I`ll most gladly revise my opinions.
                      If we know what we`re doing, why do our very best competitors so often look elsewhere? Why???
                      Denny

                      First off, my prior post wasn't to annoy you I respect your efforts your knowledge and your devotion to what your doing.

                      Thanks for posting.

                      OK in regard to your last post, I am going to ask you a question. Are we measuring success in terms of horses that go to the Olympics?
                      I am going to raise a question than about our riders and our training and our programs to get horses to compete at the very top, I don't think our performance at that level has anything to do with American bred vs European bred does it?
                      Don't we have to start at the bottom before making it to the top?
                      For instance, shouldn't we be able to get a grip on breeding 3'6" and 4 ft hunters?
                      If we can't even do that successfully how can we even consider breeding a GRAND PRIX ANYTHING?

                      Am I offbase? I don't think I am. We haven't gotten that far at the bottom to even aim for the top.

                      Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ
                      Owner/Trainer of http://www.plumstedequestrianctr.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If we know what we`re doing, why do our very best competitors so often look elsewhere? Why???
                        Denny


                        COST...... COST...........COST..........
                        Training.

                        Horses are farther along and cost less $$.

                        Case in point, I have a lovely horse in my barn for sale, over 35K, taking my own customer tomorrow to Georgia to see an imported horse from Germany. Why? For about the same $$
                        this one jumps around a 3'6" to 4ft course without blinking an eye and it's flatwork is impeccable.

                        We have to reduce training costs and increase performance to get the same value as our European counterparts don't we?

                        Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ
                        Owner/Trainer of http://www.plumstedequestrianctr.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          This is my first post, and it is directed to Mr. Emerson. I am tired of hearing how stupid we as breeders are, and how you will fix it by educating us. Let's see how well you yourself are educated. You asked a specific question, and I have two in return. As head of the breeding committee, you should have no trouble answering these:

                          1. What U.S. bred, U.S. born, U.S. papered, U.S. registry registered,U.S. owned stallion, with foals on the ground in the U.S., just competed as a member of a European team in Aachen?

                          2. What U.S. registry had two U.S. bred, U.S. born, U.S. papered, U.S. approved and U.S. owned stallions, with foals on the ground in the U.S., competing in the World Cup finals (not qualifiers)in 2003?

                          I'm not talking about USET teams from 25 years ago, I'm talking this year.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well NYBreeder, I feel dumb. Please enlighten me, I'd love to know the answer to this and know how this one slipped by me unnoticed LOL!!!

                            Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ
                            Owner/Trainer of http://www.plumstedequestrianctr.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              DITTO - on the training issue.

                              Denny - WHERE ARE THE PROFESSIONALS THAT JUST WANT TO START YOUNG HORSES??

                              They are wall to wall in Europe. Here - most of our top riders won't even consider bringing a young horse along. Reiner Klimke was fine with it - our FEI riders won't look at anything that's not competing PSG and schooling GP.

                              As far as the Jumpers - well in Europe all of those horses have tremendous foundations in flatwork - here the focus isn't on flat work anymore. Most young kids ride hunters with their butts in the air the whole time - no flat work, no grids, no gymnastics - they just want ribbons!! Most can't canter seated on the saddle. They have spurs on by the time they are 7 and never ride without using the crop. Leg?? what leg?

                              I'm in NJ - training board is $1000 a month if you can find a place that IS JUST FOR STARTING YOUNG HORSES. Most that have quality facilities, good turn out, etc. etc. (AND ARE CLOSE ENOUGH TO MONITOR THE HORSE'S TRAINING) are also boarding facilities. Problem there is you have boarders who pay big bucks to be there and have no patience for nor understanding of just backed youngsters. Usually a recipe for problems.

                              I'm 52 - having been breeding for 15 years - do I really want to spend $100,000 +++ on an indoor. My taxes are off the richter scale now. I can't justify it without TAKING IN BOARDERS. Back to the recipe that doesn't work.

                              I keep telling trainers in Europe - come over - build a generic facility - and just take in young horses to back and start with a good solid foundation in Dressage, Jumping (both in a chute and under saddle) and YES!!! some cross country schooling and hacking. Just the basics - no glitz - no glamour. The trailers would have the New Jersey Turnpike bumper to bumper!

                              We've lost our "horsemen" Denny!! That's what the problem is IMHO. No one wants to be that anonymous person that brought the kid along - every one wants to win ribbons! They want MADE HORSES. So our carry puts a price tag that CANNOT compete with Europe. Their horse market is depressed and they have incredibly low prices on super horses.

                              I have a fabulous 3 yo for sale $15,000 - could do any discipline (and he's out of a TB mare!) - also a wonderful 2 yo for $9500. People on the East coast can get a made undersaddle horse and import for those prices right now! Do I blame them for not buying here - no. But by the time I put training on these boys - well you can see where the numbers are going - not down.

                              We can put the breeders through a meat grinder over and over again but we've discussed this at the ISR/OLDNA board meetings over and over again - we have NO TRAINERS FOR YOUNG HORSES ANYMORE. That's probably the reason all these "round pen" guys are laughing all the way to the bank - it's the only alternative for people who can't start the young ones themselves. And some of us would if we could - but a broken back ended my climb on the back of any green 3 yo's forever.

                              Sorry to sound a bit frazzled but I've written to the COTH many times about this - the lack of training isn't going away it gets worse and the great minds of training like Bertalen de Nemethy, etal are passing away.

                              Who, I ask you, is carrying on the tradition of horse training in North America? Where are the "new names" in trainers - all we see are older trainers or "imports" from Europe or elsewhere. Can't blame those who bring in the trainers from elsewhere - the results in competition are obvious.

                              Debbie MacDonald commented that the success of the US Dressage riders was Klaus's ability to get the riders more connected to their horses (I paraphrase) - I yelled "YES" out loud when I read that. Where, oh where, is the emphasis on teaching the next generation of riders - young Young Riders about horsemanship and partnership with the horse - AND NOT JUST ABOUT WINNING RIBBONS AND CHAMPIONSHIPS. I mentioned that I learned to jump in a jumping chute to someone and one of the young people standing neaby asked me what that was. I told them we had to go through with arms out to the side and no irons - through that chute with straight rails set up all the way down. Their response was just a look of dis-belief.

                              You reap what you sow and we aren't planting the right seeds anymore. I'm exhausted from breeding superior horses and they are competing and their owners love them and most were started by amateurs but it's a 24/7/365 effort that I couldn't have done if I hadn't had a career in the financial world before I put on the muckers full time.

                              If you are in NJ - let us know - we'll take you around to some smaller breeding farms and show you some super equinie athletes. You show us the trainers for them and we'll call it a draw.

                              [This message was edited by ise@ssl on Jun. 27, 2003 at 12:43 PM.]
                              Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
                              "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I am not sure what American bred stallion was on the team in Aachen - if you mean Royal Kaliber - he was bred in Holland by J. LAMERS. Not sure what other horse you could be refering to from Aachen.

                                The other horse who represented the USA in the World Cup is Judgement of Iron Spring Farm. He is indeed American bred and born. Both his parents were imported from Holland but Judgement was bred & born in good ole Coatesville, PA.

                                Meghan

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If the USAE really wants to help breeders - make our identity mandetory on ALL SHOW ENTRIES. This does a great service to both the breeders and the buyers. You can see who produces performance horses and you can see who doesn't!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Entry blanks are not submitted to USAE Equestrian and are subject to the (frequently) poor memory of the person who is filling them out. The simplest solution is for breeders to enter their mares, foals and stallions in the USAE database. Horse ID numbers are FREE until further notice and offer breeders an opportunity to document their products (complete with breeder information)in the master database and track their careers. The Leading Sire, Leading Breeder (coming soon to the internet) and Leading Owner lists are built from Stallion, Breeder and Owner IDs. VERY few breeders even make the effort to take advantage of this opportunity.

                                  We are also working on Stallion and Mare reports similar to the Jockey Club's which are again, powered by the database itself.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Additionally, we are working on a product that will allow the media and show announcers to retrieve breeding information and past performance for a feature class or an entire show.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Well Denny there you have it, why do the "elite" go to Europe to buy because they've been taught to believe the horses are better and yet the Europeans are national minded enough not to sell us their best but the ones they know they can beat.

                                      Give me a break it's the fashion isn't it? I am totally in favor of whatever measures are necessary to make sure that both members of our Olympic partnerships are American. I here and only here agree with the French who insist on a French bred horse for the French Team.

                                      The entire program needs to be re-organized so that the Breeders get credit for their efforts and perhaps a ladder here so that eventualy there is a challenge of the Breeds sorting out the best horses American bred. Perhaps we need to consider qualifying horses separately from the rider. Yes! subsidies wouldn't hurt either. Here in New Jersey although these days it's a pittance the Equine Advisory Board distributes award cash to the breeders which they get from the race tracks handle.

                                      The possiblity of a similar Federal Program always exists. In fact as the Department of Agriculture depends more and more on horses as a farm product breeding here can be encouraged.

                                      This is the same old "chicken and egg" debate that always stops any chance of a new idea out of the box that focuses on a goal instead of on the Olympians.

                                      Is it we don't have knowledgeable breeders for better horses or is it that we don't give the knowledgeable breeders an opportunity to be considered because it's easier to go to Europe and not as risky.

                                      Battle Scarred Veteran
                                      http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Meghan-- the question was, what stallion "just competed as a member of a European team in Aachen." Hint: he didn't even jump a stick.

                                        Comment

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