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Pony Breeders: What happens with oversized ponies?

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  • #21
    Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
    Well ... there IS that vet in Quebec that will make that pesky 14.3-15hh "hony" a "pony" once again for a fee ... ...

    Once the stitches come out and the withers heal from being ground down the required 1-2 inches and the hair grows back, you'd NEVER know your "pony" was once a "hony" ... ... and you can easily get your permanent card too!

    Seriously??? That's HORRIBLE!!!!!
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    • #22
      Seriously??? That's HORRIBLE!!!!!
      Oh yes. Seriously. And he's ONLY lost one that we've heard about ...
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      • #23
        Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
        Well ... there IS that vet in Quebec that will make that pesky 14.3-15hh "hony" a "pony" once again for a fee ... ...

        Once the stitches come out and the withers heal from being ground down the required 1-2 inches and the hair grows back, you'd NEVER know your "pony" was once a "hony" ... ... and you can easily get your permanent card too!

        Oh! And if you get an unmarked Paint and need a spot put on it to make Regular Registry with APHA instead of breeding stock, he has a catalogue of spots you can pick from and voila! When you leave your APHA foal will now have a nice new "natural" spot and you can now apply for your Regular Paint papers too

        He does VERY VERY well in this line of business too ...


        Seriously? this is quite sickening to me
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        • #24
          Originally posted by rideagoldenpony View Post
          Seriously??? That's HORRIBLE!!!!!
          I agree. Wow.
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          • #25
            I have a hony, I bought her at 2 from her breeder and she was bred to be a midsize sport horse. She is sired by O Learys Irish Diamond (RID) and out of a 15 hand connemara/tb mare. She is now 3 1/2 and the best horse hands down. She has three good gaits, is athletic, a bit of a slug, and will come to the gate every time I walk down the lane to her field. She even kicked another mare, in hopes it would keep me from taking the other one in! She is 15 hands......and I will NEVER regret buying her.

            I was talking to a lady that boards at my farm about her tonight. This is the perfect type of mare to breed from. Her conformation is solid, her gaits are good, and her mind is outstanding. The thought of giving her time off to be a mommy though makes me cringe, but I would clone her if I could! So maybe once they reach the point my mare has, people do not sell them, I already turned down a lady that wanted to try her as she wanted to downsize.

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            • #26
              Sometimes the opposite happens - those of us who breed warmbloods end up with the occasional midget! My plan is to sell her just like I would have if she would have ended up 16+hh like she should have! :-)

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              • #27
                Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
                Well ... there IS that vet in Quebec that will make that pesky 14.3-15hh "hony" a "pony" once again for a fee ... ...

                Once the stitches come out and the withers heal from being ground down the required 1-2 inches and the hair grows back, you'd NEVER know your "pony" was once a "hony" ... ... and you can easily get your permanent card too!

                Oh! And if you get an unmarked Paint and need a spot put on it to make Regular Registry with APHA instead of breeding stock, he has a catalogue of spots you can pick from and voila! When you leave your APHA foal will now have a nice new "natural" spot and you can now apply for your Regular Paint papers too

                He does VERY VERY well in this line of business too ...
                oh boy, I hope you have public proof of this- I live in Quebec, and I am here to tell you that I find it sickening that this would be posted here. I think that indulging in this type of reputation slamming gossip is going way over the line.
                If, on the other hand, it is true, then it needs to be made public and dealt with appropriately.
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                • #28
                  It happens at a few places across North America. There are a few ponies out there who have been "rumored" to having their withers shaved. No different than a few vets out there who do liposuction and cosmetic surgery on Arabians, administering drugs like Ritalin, etc. to horses, etc.
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                  • #29
                    It happens at a few places across North America. There are a few ponies out there who have been "rumored" to having their withers shaved. No different than a few vets out there who do liposuction and cosmetic surgery on Arabians, administering drugs like Ritalin, etc. to horses, etc.
                    Except if someone sells one as a breeding animal without full disclosure then I believe it becomes fraud. So, all you buyers out there ... x-ray the withers w/ your PPE

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                    • #30
                      Well, Perfect Pony, I actually tried to breed a hony of my own.

                      I was hoping for something in the 15hh range out of my 16hh TB mare. The stallion is 15.2hh, offspring are not huge and he's sired some nice ponies.

                      But no hony for me. She turned out to be 14.1hh.

                      (That makes me a Failed Hony Breeder, I guess.)

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                      • #31
                        No different than a few vets out there who do liposuction and cosmetic surgery on Arabians
                        Yup. Or nerve the ears and/or tails on AQHA and APHA WP and EP horses so they dont pin their ears and/or swish their tails when Suzie bounces up and down on their backs and they look "happy" all the time

                        Ever wonder how *some* Arabians necks look so "chiseled" and "sculpted"? Not favorable genetics at all - you strip out one of those muscles and *voila!* - your Arabian too can achieve that "favored" look!

                        Out of all of the vets in Quebec Ingrid, I am only aware of *1* that has done this kind of work, so its not like Quebec is held out as *the* cosmetic surgery capital of the Horse World.

                        We have vets here in Ontario that have been caught and charged with selling steroids to body builders, some that have been caught with selling certain street "interesting" drugs to bikers, prostitutes, dealers, etc - doesnt mean that Ontario is "the" capital for doing this - it just means there are 1 or 2 stupid vets out there that thought they could get away with it ...

                        One notable case involved a vet that did do jail time. His "average" use of Winstrol was maybe 1 x 25 ml bottle every 6 to 8 months. He then went to 6 or 7 bottles a MONTH (and this is a federally controlled substance as well remember). Well - NO surprise there at all. All sorts of red flags went up, he got a knock on his door from the Feds and he couldnt produce records to show what HORSES he used this substance on, and he took a long vacation for that one

                        Where there is money to be made, there are no more surprises any more as to what is getting done out there ...

                        And what about the THOUSANDS of periostal strips and club foot correction surgeries that are done each and every year in reputable vet clinics across North America? They arent "okay" either, especially in animals to be used for breeding stock later on, but I dont see THEM abating anytime soon either ...

                        Except if someone sells one as a breeding animal without full disclosure then I believe it becomes fraud. So, all you buyers out there ... x-ray the withers w/ your PPE
                        Not really. Look at the above periostal stripping and/or check ligament surgery. Havent heard many people declaring THAT one if they go to sell a horse and in many many cases, unless you are the breeder, you wouldnt have a clue that it had been done either. And if you did buy a pony with shaved withers, I guess unless you shave that area and looked for telltale faded stitch marks or a faint ridge of scar tissue, you wouldnt be able to tell either

                        You can always tell a nerved tail or nerved ears but no idea if you can tell if a strip job had been done on an Arabian or not
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                        • #32
                          Originally posted by imajacres View Post
                          oh boy, I hope you have public proof of this- I live in Quebec, and I am here to tell you that I find it sickening that this would be posted here. I think that indulging in this type of reputation slamming gossip is going way over the line.
                          If, on the other hand, it is true, then it needs to be made public and dealt with appropriately.
                          Whoa, now. I'm appalled to hear of this, but not surprised.

                          Look what is done to dogs, after all.
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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by inca View Post
                            Sometimes the opposite happens - those of us who breed warmbloods end up with the occasional midget! My plan is to sell her just like I would have if she would have ended up 16+hh like she should have! :-)
                            I have a WB midget! This girl has a HUGE stride and is a powerful jumper. Hopefully, we will continue to the 3'6. She make it look like she walks down lines and has a jump in her! I remember a BNT saying "she is so small" but I am only 5'3.
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                            • #34
                              [QUOTE=TrueColours;5327788]Yup. Or nerve the ears and/or tails on AQHA and APHA WP and EP horses so they dont pin their ears and/or swish their tails when Suzie bounces up and down on their backs and they look "happy" all the time

                              Ever wonder how *some* Arabians necks look so "chiseled" and "sculpted"? Not favorable genetics at all - you strip out one of those muscles and *voila!* - your Arabian too can achieve that "favored" look!

                              Out of all of the vets in Quebec Ingrid, I am only aware of *1* that has done this kind of work, so its not like Quebec is held out as *the* cosmetic surgery capital of the Horse World.

                              We have vets here in Ontario that have been caught and charged with selling steroids to body builders, some that have been caught with selling certain street "interesting" drugs to bikers, prostitutes, dealers, etc - doesnt mean that Ontario is "the" capital for doing this - it just means there are 1 or 2 stupid vets out there that thought they could get away with it ...

                              One notable case involved a vet that did do jail time. His "average" use of Winstrol was maybe 1 x 25 ml bottle every 6 to 8 months. He then went to 6 or 7 bottles a MONTH (and this is a federally controlled substance as well remember). Well - NO surprise there at all. All sorts of red flags went up, he got a knock on his door from the Feds and he couldnt produce records to show what HORSES he used this substance on, and he took a long vacation for that one

                              Where there is money to be made, there are no more surprises any more as to what is getting done out there ...

                              And what about the THOUSANDS of periostal strips and club foot correction surgeries that are done each and every year in reputable vet clinics across North America? They arent "okay" either, especially in animals to be used for breeding stock later on, but I dont see THEM abating anytime soon either ...



                              Not really. Look at the above periostal stripping and/or check ligament surgery. Havent heard many people declaring THAT one if they go to sell a horse and in many many cases, unless you are the breeder, you wouldnt have a clue that it had been done either. And if you did buy a pony with shaved withers, I guess unless you shave that area and looked for telltale faded stitch marks or a faint ridge of scar tissue, you wouldnt be able to tell either

                              OK well, I would like to know the vet who does this wither grinding here because I for sure dont want to be dealing with this person. And back to my original point, these people need to be made public if there is real proof. This isnt cosmetic ( much as I find that repulsive), this is a dangerous practice.
                              Thanks.
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                              • #35
                                Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
                                Well ... there IS that vet in Quebec that will make that pesky 14.3-15hh "hony" a "pony" once again for a fee ... ...

                                Once the stitches come out and the withers heal from being ground down the required 1-2 inches and the hair grows back, you'd NEVER know your "pony" was once a "hony" ... ... and you can easily get your permanent card too!

                                Oh! And if you get an unmarked Paint and need a spot put on it to make Regular Registry with APHA instead of breeding stock, he has a catalogue of spots you can pick from and voila! When you leave your APHA foal will now have a nice new "natural" spot and you can now apply for your Regular Paint papers too

                                He does VERY VERY well in this line of business too ...
                                I don't know you, TC, but I know of you. I have to say that I am glad that I don't have your reputation. You come on here and libel a vet in Canada who you claim to be doing horrendous things to animals AND whom you claim is breaking the law by adding color to horses in order for them to gain registry where they are not eligible. You are a breeder of colored horses and you have not reported this person to any authority, yet you claim you "know" he is doing this. It is either malicious gossip or it needs to be stopped. You claim you have the evidence to stop it on a public BB, yet you have done nothing. You claim to be a horse woman, yet you don't stand up for the horses. Pathetic.
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                                • #36
                                  You guys are kidding, right???? Any time money is involved, especially high dollars, people are going to do unethical, illegal, immoral things to get their cut of the pie. That's just a fact of life. Wither shaving and injecting tails are just two of the numerous "cosmetic" procedures that are done and as long as people are willing to pay to have it done, there are going to be people out there willing to do the procedure. What about the vet(s) that did numerous ET's and breedings and when the resulting foals weren't up to snuff, they were sacrificed. Yup...that one had his license suspended. Or those that will put in a "neutical" on a cryptorchid stallion so no one is the "wiser"? Or what about riders that use drugs to get the horse through a performance? What about the "trainers" that use Regumate to make stallions more manageable? Or the ones that use a magnesium "cocktail" to make them nice and quiet? Yeah, it happens. And some big name trainers and competitors do it! Yeah...I'm like most of you here that are appalled at it. But as long as owners are willing to allow their animals to be drugged, managed and "trained", breeders are willing to pay for "cosmetic" procedures, and everyone is willing to keep their mouths' shut, it "will" continue. Heck just read the suspended list of the USEF and you'll get a good idea of how often unethical things are done! And those are just the individuals that are caught!

                                  With that said, I can't say how many times I've watched on these boards where people jump on the individuals such as the above, that bring such things to light. It's a no win situation. If you say something publicly, some people think you should be tar and feathered for expecting people to behave in an ethical, moral manner. And yet those same individuals will howl from the rooftops if they feel they've been "wronged" and no one told them before that a breeder or a vet was unethical. If you don't say anything, you're essentially condoning the behavior and allowing the things to continue. Heck...go read the thread on OCD and Ethics and you'll get an idea of just how divided people are and how willing they are to accept or deny what is stated good or bad without verifying the veracity of the information presented!! TrueColors did not name names. Just said it was done by a vet in her area. No slander there...just a heads up folks. Getting sufficient information and proof to be able to report that person to the vet board is a whole 'nother thing.

                                  Jos and I regularly have the discussion that if you don't police yourselves, someone else "will" do it for you! We've heard the horror stories - and from those directly involved! But proving it is a whole 'nother can of worms. So my advice - which combined with a dollar, "might" get you a cup of coffee - don't support the individuals you KNOW are guilty of the unethical behavior. Verify it first. Do your homework. Ask questions. And, go to the source and ASK!!! If a vet is actually doing the procedure and you show up and say "hey! I've heard you'll shave withers on my pony? Will and do you?". What do you think is going to be his/her reaction? If they're actually doing it, he/she may say..yeah sure...and you then have your answer and can proceed from there. Or they may give you the deer in the headlights look and deny it, but it will give them a heads up that they're on the radar and hopefully will cease and desist. Or, they may honestly deny it and a dialog can ensue from there.

                                  I'm still in awe that so many people here are surprised that there are dishonest and unethical people out there in the horse business!
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                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    Originally posted by ponybreeder View Post
                                    I don't know you, TC, but I know of you. I have to say that I am glad that I don't have your reputation. You come on here and libel a vet in Canada who you claim to be doing horrendous things to animals AND whom you claim is breaking the law by adding color to horses in order for them to gain registry where they are not eligible. You are a breeder of colored horses and you have not reported this person to any authority, yet you claim you "know" he is doing this. It is either malicious gossip or it needs to be stopped. You claim you have the evidence to stop it on a public BB, yet you have done nothing. You claim to be a horse woman, yet you don't stand up for the horses. Pathetic.
                                    While I understand and appreciate your sentiments, there is no way in hell TC could get away with naming and names on these forums. i have named names of people who have been untruthful and that I know have abused horses and it was removed within minutes. The mods do not let you name names on here.

                                    Besides the wither shaving (which I too have heard has been done, but have never seen) most of things she talks about have been done. Shoot, I was thinking of buying a horse from a breeder on these boards who had club foot surgery done that was not disclosed, not sure if it ever would have been as I found out through the grapevine first. And the nerving and drugging? I know you have been around enough to know what goes on. I spent 6 months at a BNT barn and could barely stomach it.
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                                    • #38
                                      Cash Robin. No invoices. No proof. No way of "outing" them None. And your legal bills would be huge and you wouldnt win anyhow ...

                                      There is also another track vet who accepts *cash* and the horse is given a substance that is naturally occuring in the body but if given in high enough amounts will cause cardiac arrest. Upon a necropsy being done, nothing is shown to be out of the ordinary at all. Insurance is then paid out

                                      Again - all cash deals and no one is talking. There is NO paper trail Robin. None at all

                                      And I guess when your solid coloured Paint foal is worth $500.00 - $1000.00 and if it had that 2" white spot it would be worth $5000.00 - $10,000.00 and all it costs is a few hundred dollars cash to make that happen, guess what? You sure as shooting will have people that find that option a very desirable one and since both sides of the equation have lots to gain AND lose, no one is going to say a word about it. And your stallion will have the desirable reputation of siring a high percentage of colour on his babies as well which leads to more and more stud revenues for the owners

                                      Do you ever wonder WHY the vet hospitals are FILLED each spring / summer with youngsters getting stripped or having check ligament surgery done??? Why - so when the buyers at the yearling sales the next fall see the PERFECT STRAIGHT specimens standing in front of them, they bid them up to maximum dollar values!

                                      And "out them"??? Hell Robin - you'd probably have a huge percentage of every large TB and SB breeding farm on the list to "out". It seems to be a VERY common practice, especially where large yearling sales revenues are at stake as well as the reputation of the stallion himself for producing high revenue babies.

                                      Tail and ear nerving is VERY illegal in the APHA and AQHA circuits. Does it still happen? You betcha it does ... So is soring the Walking horses, sticking ginger in the anuses of the Saddlebreds and Hackneys and God knows what else people do to win their classes. Just how many people out there do you propose we "out"???

                                      And yeah Wynn - what goes on in the horse world is NOTHING compared to what happens in the dog world on a regular basis ...

                                      And thanks Kathy and PP - it really and truly does stink in every possible way. And I guess what really riles me the most is if any of us buy this nice youngster or mare or stallion prospect and what we see in front of us is a perfectly correct, straight individual and then foal after foal pops out with legs as crooked as pretzels, you really have to wonder then, after spending years and thousands and thousands of dollars, if that individual was stripped or cosmetically corrected once upon a time? And the person YOU bought them from may not have had any idea either unless they were the actual breeder and di the correction themselves ...
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                                      • #39
                                        WELL SAID ponybreeder & Equine Reproduction!!!!!!!!!
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                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by ponybreeder View Post
                                          You come on here and libel a vet in Canada who you claim to be doing horrendous things to animals AND whom you claim is breaking the law by adding color to horses in order for them to gain registry where they are not eligible. You are a breeder of colored horses and you have not reported this person to any authority, yet you claim you "know" he is doing this. It is either malicious gossip or it needs to be stopped. You claim you have the evidence to stop it on a public BB, yet you have done nothing. You claim to be a horse woman, yet you don't stand up for the horses. Pathetic.
                                          Ahhh...and then it comes back to being between a rock and a hard place, Robin . If one reports a vet that you KNOW is doing illegal and unethical procedures, suddenly it can become difficult to get vet care for your animals! With the number of large animal vets declining rapidly, there are just fewer and fewer out there and some of them "do" hang together and definitely talk! We're fortunate in that our own vet here does NOT tolerate unethical behavior and will report her peer if she is aware of inappropriate behavior. It's why she "is" our vet. But, if you're in an area where there are only a small number of vets, what to do? Believe me, I'm not condoning turning your head, but I definitely "do" understand why it is done. And being aware of what is being done and having sufficient "proof" to be able to report it can be two very different things <sigh>.

                                          There are lots and lots and lots of truly wonderful vets who would probably be inclined to report the person who asks for an unethical/illegal procedure to be done, but who do you report THAT person to? And of course, it's just a handful that taint it for everyone. Ugh...no win any way you look at it!

                                          BTW, love your signature Robin <lol>.
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