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Breeding what everyone expects you to, or not?

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  • Breeding what everyone expects you to, or not?

    I wondered what everyone's opinion is when you have a mare whose pedigree says they should be bred for a particular sport. In my case I have an ID x TB mare and the "expected" thing to do would be to put her to a TB to produce the classic 3/4 TB, 1/4 ID eventer.

    I've researched eventing bloodlines for many months, gone to see many of the stallions available in the UK and drawn up a shortlist of possible sires. I've looked into the famous bloodlines from the past and discovered many of them are in danger of dying out so I've specifically looked at the last representatives of those lines with a view to possibly breeding a stallion prospect to keep the best UK lines going. The lines in question are Welton Crackerjack, Just a Monarch, Shaab, Ballinvella, Mayhill and Welton Apollo. Many of our other best male lines have already died out (Master Spiritus, Edmund Burke, I'm a Star, Sky Boy, Nickel King, Garnered) All of these stallions have produced 4****, Olympic and World Cup competitors.

    That all sounds good I think? The only problem is that I'm just not excited about breeding an eventer. Eventing foals are very difficult to sell so I'd have to be prepared to keep the foal till it was under saddle and although I can bring on young horses I don't jump any more so would have to send the youngster away when it was old enough to learn to jump under saddle.

    What excites me is the thought of breeding this mare to a dual talented stallion, something like Hirtentanz (Trakehner jumping stallion) or Come Back II (Holstein bred, Grand Prix dressage horse, produces jumpers and dressage horses). But if I did, especially the Holstein stallion, it would not be what anyone expects and I don't think the foal would be taken seriously, no matter how good the quality was.

    What do you think? Should you breed what everyone expects you to breed or should you take a chance and go in a completely different direction?

  • #2


    You just can't win.

    If you do what everybody expects you to and get an average foal, people won't notice: "just another 3/4 TB 1/4 ID foal"...

    If you go for another type of stallion and fail, you'll get the "that was a crazy backyardish idea".

    While if you succeed... No one will ever say a word, either way!

    Breed your mare to the most appropriate stallion for HER and be prepared to keep the foal until it is of riding age; and that is the right thing to do regardless.

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    • #3
      I think you should go with what suits your mare. Nothing wrong with trying to produce a jumper or dressage horse. I took my RIDSH to a WB (OLD, Gatsby) and the foal is sold in-utero. There have definitely been Grand Prix ISH and ID, so nothing wrong with trying to produce that.
      Epona Farm
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      • #4
        I hear ya! Well if I did what people think I should do, I'd never breed my TB mare because she is a TB mare.

        I may be wrong here but in the past more eventers have been found rather than bred unlike jumping and dressage. Yes the typical formula is what you are describing, I don't think you can say at the time the greats of today were bred, they were bred to be top eventers.

        Most of the great lines in eventing do die out because once you figure out how good those lines were, the horses are dead. Eventing is not unlike National Hunt breeding. Very few stallions competing at the top levels and so by the time a particular line is popular it's almost gone. I'm sure I have that wrong but buying foals for jumping and dressage is not as risky as buying an eventing foal. So as you say, prices reflect this. I will probably get flamed for this but event horses need extra qualities that you dont necessarily find in bloodlines. You know like heart, 5th leg, ect. Jumping lines and dressage lines are somewhat more predictable but not a given.

        I think most of what I just wrote makes no sense so sorry. To me you had no issues in selling Oliver this year so you made the right choice. I would suspect you followed your heart as well as your mares needs so I would do the very same thing again.

        Terri
        COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

        "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

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        • #5
          If you are breeding to sell, then breed what has the most chance of selling as a foal. And be prepared to keep it until it is going under saddle. That's the nature of the business.

          But if you are convinced that the foal won't sell anyway, then breed what you want to ride as a three year old. That way you can't be disappointed in your choice. It's very much easier to look at a pasture ornament that you actively wanted!
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          • Original Poster

            #6
            Ain't that the truth! The only irony is that genuine 3/4 TB, 1/4 ID are rare these days, especially when both parents have good competition records. So maybe I should follow the expected path?

            Ironically this year's foal was by Silvermoon, I was aiming to produce a dressage horse. He's been sold to go eventing!!! But he may well be very good at that job. Not only is the Kostolany line producing good jumping horses as well as dressage horses, Gribaldi is the sire of a very good Advanced eventing stallion and the Kostolany line traces directly back to Bay Ronald, one of the best TB progenitors of jumping horses. Silvermoon may just be an excellent eventing sire.

            I used Silvermoon again but since my mare is in her late teens and I'm planning on having a maximum of 4 foals from her I was thinking of using a different stallion partly to see what she is bringing to the foal and what Silvermoon has contributed.

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            • #7
              Well if you went the traditional route and had a filly, that would be special. And maybe think about keeping her and see what she can do before selling or keeping to replace your mare someday. Then you can go any which way you choose.

              I'm not a big Irish horse fan and like grey horses less but I really love a stallion over here called Cruisings Mickey Finn. I have no idea why but I do. He has some really good Irish breeding but I'm always like, no don't cross over to the dark side! LOL

              Terri
              COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

              "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

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              • #8
                Succeeding with purpose breeding for eventing is much more common in the UK and Ireland than it is here. That's why so many US riders go to Ireland and Britain for their already started horses.

                While I probably would agree that event bred foals in general don't bring the huge prices that dressage or jumper foals would, especially in Germany, when they are going under saddle they do bring nice prices, as the most recent auctions in Germany and Ireland have showed.

                Because your mare is who and what she is, she will always get eventer interest almost without regard to the stallion if he's got some jumper breeding. In her case, almost any of the stallions you are considering wouldn't hurt the foal's eventing potential. On the other hand, it certainly would be a good thing if you managed to produce a "classic" bred event horse stallion from one of the dying lines. If you have a limited number of foals from her, I'd beg you to "waste" one of them on a stallion from the known event horse producers like Shaab.
                "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                • #9
                  Call Rathbarry and ask if they'd be interested in a deal-as in collecting some leftover Presenting semen and shipping it on over! LOL! Bet you'd sell that one for good money as a foal! Busted lines there too.

                  I do have to lean towards the traditional as well only because your mare is a little extra special. It's not like she's any ole half bred. You could have something very special.

                  Was just looking through the new directory of Irish stallions and came across some interesting TB ones. Will get back to you.

                  Also would not say just getting horses under saddle is enough anymore. Yes one eventing sale was ok, but prices for horses out doing things very very average at best. I was shocked at the prices at the Tatts eventing sale for young horses with form. Yes you have to be realistic in this economy but still I thought most prices were very poor for what was on offer.

                  Terri
                  COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                  "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

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                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Hey those are really good ideas! I love Cruising's Mickey Finn too, he's got some of the best Irish lines in him. And Presenting is one of my favourite stallions. To me he's what a National Hunt sire should be, solid, athletic and with a leg at each corner. I don't suppose they do discount deals to sportshorse mares do they? If they do (wishful thinking) I'll be first in the queue.

                    Viney I'm another Shaab fan. My reservations about using his only remaining stallion son (Upton's Deli Circus) is that he is only half TB, his damline is not fully known. He himself is a butty little chap who stands just under 15.2hh. I'd use him without a second thought on a full TB (Terri?!) but I'm not sure about putting him to a half bred. I might just get a shortlegged elephant. On the plus side he is the nicest stallion you could ever wish to meet with a really happy attitude to life and he's still sound and jumping at the age of 20.

                    The two mostly TBs who are currently on the shortlist are Up With The Lark (Welton Apollo line) who is an advanced eventer and Primmore's Pioneer (Mayhill line) who is full brother to Primmore's Pride. I haven't been to see either of them in person yet but will do once all this snow goes away.

                    Thankyou for posting on this thread. It does sound as if I should do what everyone expects and breed an eventer. Viney you are right about my mare's babies selling because of who she is. That's what happened this year, I was really surprised and very pleased. Having recently read Chris Hector's wonderful book "The Making of the Modern Warmblood" what came across was how often the great horses only became great because the people behind them were prepared to have faith and stick with them. I think that's what I need. More faith. If the great lines that are in danger of being lost are not bred to using good mares they stand no chance of producing a stallion son. Someone has got to do it haven't they? I just didn't think it would be me!

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                    • #11
                      Yes, I do think UDC, is more suited to a long legged full TB mare. I too love him, but if you are going for class eventer it could be hit or miss.

                      I ask you to keep Houmayoun in consideration too as he is now available to other horses besides TB's and fresh semen is available in the UK. Aga Khan bred from a terrific mare line and a Busted sire line. Something for the mix.

                      I really wish he would have stood to sporthorses a bit sooner because I think this horse definitely could have left his mark in the sporthorse world. Now it's going to be a few years before we know and he will be gone.

                      For the craic, I'm going to call Rathbarry on Wednesday and just see what they say!!!! LOL

                      Terri
                      COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                      "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        I'll be waiting with baited breath to hear what they say Presenting is such a wonderful stallion.

                        I haven't heard of Houmayoun but having looked at his pedigree he's very nice isn't he? What a shame he's already 23.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Terri, if you're really going to call Rathbury, find out about their Robin stallion. He's stunning and beautifully bred for sport. But I've heard, maybe from here, that he's having fertility problems or has had them in the past.

                          I can't remember if he's Robin des Champs or Robin des Pins and I'm too lazy to look.

                          Just looked. He's Robin des Champs.
                          http://www.pedigreequery.com/robin+des+champs
                          "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                          Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                          • #14
                            I will do Viney. Both of the Robin's are in Ireland FWIW. I will find out, but TB people are pretty mum about fertility issues for the most part. Sometimes it's rumors and sometimes just disgruntled mare owners. I remember a few years ago Antonius Pius was supposed to be dire for getting mares in foal and only found out when my mare was down at stud costing me 30 euros per day. At any rate, I had 2 AP foals back to back years and my mare took on the first time both times. But I will try and do some fishing none the less.

                            Terri
                            COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                            "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I have an idea! Why don't you just not breed her??????????

                              If what she is and what she will produce the best doesn't excite you, then why the hell are you going to breed her?

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                And since you know nothing about the mare, why are you commenting? She is asking legit questions on a very good mare. A foal that could be very useful in years to come. Those of us commenting actually understand what she is on about. Especially over here in that the market for what she describing is so so, but out of her mare could be much better than so so. Since you only have 49 posts I will assume you just think SS is some sort of BYB with delusions of grandeur.

                                Terri
                                COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                                "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

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                                • #17
                                  Make a path, don't worry about following a path.

                                  You are already leading by example. Your mare is a dressage mare to a level people don't know 1/2 bred Irish Draught mares can go to. Irish Draughts are most limited by peoples prejudices...especially the Irish. Do what excites you and then do what you have been doing...go on line and get others excited about it. You do a great job at that. Have fun. PatO

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                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Thanks Terri and Pat. I purposely didn't post what my mare has done in competition this time as it feels a bit repetitive and blowing my own trumpet. And then I wish I had!

                                    The market in the UK and Ireland for event youngstock is terrible. A recent poll of 4**** event riders (taken a couple of years ago) showed that none of them buy foals, most buy 4,5 or 6 year olds and most of those are bought for less than €7,500. Which means if you breed an eventer, even if you breed one good enough to attract a top rider, you will probably make a loss on it. A friend has a young event horse who was top 3 in the young event horse class championships and qualified for the finals of the other one. His dressage is good, he is careful over showjumps and he is brave and careful cross country. He hasn't sold. That says it all I think.

                                    Breeding an eventer on purpose is a potentially very expensive exercise. It is difficult to get excited about it, knowing that no matter how good the horse is that you breed you are effectively going to have to subsidise whoever ends up being lucky enough to ride them. Hmmmmm. There's something wrong with that isn't there?!! Maybe in the next few years eventers will start paying more realistic prices for young horses but sadly I doubt it. The mind set is that an eventer should be picked up for peanuts and is often looked upon as a cast off from a previous failed career such as racing. The truth is very different, most of the top eventers now are purpose bred for the job. But if the buyers won't pay the prices and the breeders need to sell then the prices will stay down.

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                                    • #19
                                      I can guess how you feel as I am wanting to put a trak/xx mare from jumping lines to a holsteiner stallion to get a jumper--I know that has not been done at all or much as the holsteiner book has gnerally avoided trakehners (like the plague) and to a certain extent the f1s thoroughbred through the mare....so I am double doo. :-)

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by omare View Post
                                        I can guess how you feel as I am wanting to put a trak/xx mare from jumping lines to a holsteiner stallion to get a jumper--I know that has not been done at all or much as the holsteiner book has gnerally avoided trakehners (like the plague) and to a certain extent the f1s thoroughbred through the mare....so I am double doo. :-)
                                        So breed her to Hirtentanz A Holsteiner approved Trakehner!
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