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Discuss Halla, please--1950's show jumper

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  • Discuss Halla, please--1950's show jumper

    She has a most odd pedigree. She is by a standardbred out of a French trotter. Yet she won the Olympic individual gold and the World Championships several times with Han Gunter Winkler.

    I haven't been able to find out if she had any successful offspring.

    I'm interested in a philosophical/practical discussion of breeding theories.

    Is she one of the lightning strikes in odd places horses? And therefore not really worth considering as a breeding model? How often do things like this happen? I can think of Jappeloup as another example.

    Would Halla ever have been discovered today? Or used as a broodmare today? Or even been eligible for inclusion in a top class mare book based on her performance record?

    If anyone knows anything about what has happened to her lines, it would be interesting to get an update on this fabulous mare.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire

  • #2
    Galoubet's mother was also a French trotter, so apparently French Trotters can jump (and I don't think they have anything in common with the American standardbred horse. )
    Last edited by raffey1; Feb. 18, 2008, 01:14 PM. Reason: typo


    • Original Poster

      Unless I'm misremembering, French trotters have a good bit of American standardbred blood in the founding lines.
      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
      Thread killer Extraordinaire


      • #4
        Norman Trotters were the "light carriage horse type warmblood" of Normandy, as well as some of them being "racing harness horse" trotters.

        I do not think they had much common breeding with the US standardbred.

        Crossed with (British) Thoroughbreds, they produced the "Anglo-Norman" which is the most prominent one of the three or four French breeds that were combined and renamed the Selle Francais. The Anglo-Normans were successful sport horses well before the renaming. Try doing a search on the history of the Selle Francais for more details.

        I think it is safe to say that all of the successful Selle Francais show jumpers have at least SOME Norman Trotter blood, and I think that one of the prominent modernshow jumpers (maybe Galloubet) was 1/2 Norman Trotter.

        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


        • #5
          I think it depends on what one means by French Trotter, i have heard that term used on two different types of horses, harness race horses and French coach horses. For example look at L'Invasion, a Selle Francais stallion approved for use in the Gelderlander book in the 1940s, he goes back to "Trotter" blood. Do you have a link to Halla's correct, complete pedigree?


          • #6
            Here is a nice link:
            "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist


            • #7
              Halla is mentioned in Pamela Macgregor-Morris's 'The World's Show Jumpers" ( published 1956)

              "..16.3 hh, she is by Oberst (trotter) out of Helene ( half bred) and thoroughbred in appearance..
              "She was bred at Domane Hofmeierei, near Darmstadt ,and is still owned by her breeder, Gustav Vierling"
              "Halla started life as a racehorse, and then the Olympic committee tried her for Three Day Events, but she was too nervous for the Dressage so she was given back to her owner, who sent her to Winkler"

              The article goes on to mention that at the time the book was written she had 47 wins "chiefly in foreign competition". I think the final total was over 100 wins. I recall that she had a number of foals but don't believe any were particularly successful but I could be way wrong on that.

              There are other horses with 'Trotter' blood mentioned in the book. Charleston ( French) was quite successful at the time. In each case where 'trotter' is mentioned there is no designation of 'French trotter'.
              Fan of Sea Accounts


              • #8
                I just learned that Jappaloup's sire was also a French Trotter-- very interesting stuff.


                • #9
                  If you go back a ways there is a fair bit of light draft (trotter type) in early WB breeding, gelderlanders etc. Elsewhere too: the Section D welsh cobs are technically bred to trot, if I'm not wrong, and have produced many lovely jumping horses when crossed with lighter breeds. I personally think that the trotter background has a lot to contribute to the sport horse- tractability, knee action, stamina, soundness, push from behind. As long as they can canter!

                  Remember Mark Todds GP horse that was half trotter from the 90s? It would do this weird tranter thing in the ring sometimes and it just looked like a backache in the making!


                  • #10
                    I have a mare (and 4 offspring by Cyriz) with French and Italian Trotter in their bloodlines. The mare is Francesca. Her dam sire was Fr. Tr. named Fifi Beau Gosse. He apparently was a GP jumper. I've been told that the French used quite a bit of trotter blood and that many were super jumpers. She is in the main mare book of two German registries, so apparently they accept the blood. The only negative conformation comment I've ever gotten on her was that her topline was a bit flat. I love how she has crossed with a TB. Her 2007 filly received an 8.4 for conformation. The movement seems to come later with these foals. They have consistently scored the lowest for movement as foals, but are lovely movers (according to the inspectors) at two and older.

                    Here's her page:
                    Home of Sea Accounts xx
                    AHS/HV, ATA, GOV, RPSI, JC, AQHA, APHA, APtHA
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                    • #11
                      vineyridge, also from that same era was Nautical, the famous "Horse With the Flying Tail" (Disney movie) who started life as a cow pony. Back in those days, performance in the show ring (and the hunt field) was considered far more important than appearance or breeding. If the horse could get the job done, and do it well, nobody worried about papers or brands, or what breed he was.

                      I showed ponies in the 60s and although many were Welsh, an equal amount would be considered "mutts" by today's standards--see thread of the same name--and no one thought any less of them. Wizard of Oz, Chimney Sweep, Highfields Town and Country, Hot Shot Kid were the top, top ponies of that time and all of them (well except probably Wizard) would have a hard time being competitive today.

                      Way, off the topic of Halla, I know, but I just wanted to mention that she was not an anomalie, just a product of a different time.
                      Last edited by LaurieB; Feb. 18, 2008, 04:35 PM.


                      • #12
                        I'm not surprised that a horse that was half French trotter was successful, given Galoubet's breeding, but half Standardbred?! That is surprising.


                        • Original Poster

                          Wikipedia lists a book, Great Horses of Our Time, NYoubleday 1972, by Seabridge as the source for its information on Halla. There is a section on her. Apparently Oberst was a full standardbred (and I've looked up some of his lines) from American parents. Helene was supposed to be part French Trotter.

                          Halla had eight foals according to Wiki. I have to say from the usual picture on the internet that she was not beautiful at all.

                          Found this site listing a few other very successful Stb jumpers.
                          "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                          Thread killer Extraordinaire


                          • Original Poster

                            BTW, Janet, Jappeloup was tail male American Standardbred.
                            "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                            Thread killer Extraordinaire


                            • #15
                              I didn't say "none" I said "not much".
                              I understand they were much more closely related to the Norfolk Trotter.

                              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


                              • #16
                                In Halla's tail male line, she goes back to Axworthy- he was the sire of Guy Axworthy and Dillon Axworthy(among others) who were very prolific sires in the early 1900s in the US. Dillon Axworthy was the sire of the great Dean Hanover. Guy Axworthy was the sire of over 100 sires.
                                ****Indecision may or may not be my problem****


                                • Original Poster

                                  One of the most frequently linebred names that you find when you see French trotter pedigrees is a stallion called Fuchsia. His sire was named Reynolds, and Reynolds was full American tail female. He had standardbred and Morgan lines. Fuchsia also had a LOT of Hackney lines.

                                  Galoubet also has quite a bit of American blood. Not as much as Anglo-Norman, but all his trotter lines have a good dash of America incorporated.
                                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                  Thread killer Extraordinaire