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Pedigree connections--Relic, Blue Larkspur, Gem Twist, RAN, Primitive Rising

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  • Pedigree connections--Relic, Blue Larkspur, Gem Twist, RAN, Primitive Rising

    Relic and Blue Larkspur are very closely related in the damline. Blue Larkspur's sire was Black Servant out of a daughter of Padua. Padua had a tail female granddaughter Vaila. Vaila was the dam of Blossom Time by North Star, Blue Larkspur's dam. Vaila was also the dam of Bridal Colors by Black Toney, and Bridal Colors was the dam of Relic. Vaila was also the dam of Blind Date by Black Toney, to whom Coldly Noble traces tail female. Coldly Noble was the dam of Gem Twist, and she was by Double Jay, grandson of Black Toney.

    Do we see a mare line that nicked well with Black Toney and reliably passed on the jump? I think we do. Just one of Blue Larkspur's descendants was the horse, Bold Minstrel who was an Pan Am event horse and then became an Olympic show jumper. Blue Larkspur was his tail male grandsire. Relic is still very much alive in sport horse breeding in Europe and for steeplechasers through his female descendants.

    So if you ever find a TB with this combination reasonably close, it's probably going to be a good sport horse candidate.
    Last edited by vineyridge; Nov. 20, 2010, 10:52 AM.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire

  • #2
    My mare has the Blue Larkspur far back...through Buckpasser, so I imagine that there are several people on COTH that might find this combination you are talking about. What are some well known horses in the Relic line? So far I am not seeing any in my mare's pedigree.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Olden Times
      Relance, the dam of both Relko and Reliance.
      Buisson Ardent
      The latter two are found in Europe in particular. There are many more. In Europe, he's especially famous as a broodmare sire.
      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
      Thread killer Extraordinaire

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      • #4
        http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/smart+lil

        unfortunately she has decided she is done foaling
        I wasn't always a Smurf
        Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
        "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
        The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

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        • #5
          Yep, that's why I've held on to my daughter and granddaughter of my foundation mare. They don't have Relic, but have most of his "pedigree" and lots of crosses to Black Toney/Blue Larkspur lines and others that are crossed alot which are the "old", proven lines so important and hard to find.
          PennyG

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            I guess in a way this is what the Holsteiner people would call breeding back on stamm, but they are also tightly connected in the sire lines.

            Anyway, it's an interesting breeding stategy that has much to recommend it.
            "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
            Thread killer Extraordinaire

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            • #7
              LOVE the pedigree stuff

              My boy has Relic 6 generations back. I’d done some research after reading William Micklems blog that time. My pedigree notes are after the names he listed below.

              He had said: there are ten names in particular that should seriously brighten your day if you find a liberal sprinkling of them on BOTH sides of the back pedigree of your horse:

              1 - GALOPIN (1872 - UK, the sire of St Simon) (4x both sides combined)
              2 - ST SIMON (1881 - UK, sire of Chaucer) (8x both sides combined)
              3 - BAY RONALD (1893 - UK, sire of Rondeau, Dark Ronald & Bayardo; G sire of Teddy) (3x both sides combined)
              4 - RONDEAU (1900 - UK) (5x both sides combined)
              5 - CHAUCER (1900 – UK, grandsire of Hyperion, Pharos & Fairway) (5x damline)
              6 - DARK RONALD (1905 - UK, sire of Son In Law) (7x both sides combined)
              7 - BAYARDO (1906, grandsire of Hyperion) (9x both sides combined)
              8 - FAIR PLAY (1905 - USA, sire of Display the damsire of both Native Dancer and Bold Ruler) (2x both sides)
              9 - THE TETRARCH (1911 – Ireland) (8x both sides combined)
              10 - SON IN LAW (1911 - Grandsire of Cottage Son & Furioso ) NONE

              ...and 10 more slightly more modern thoroughbreds which connect to these sires...

              1 - TEDDY (1913 – France & USA) (6x sire line)
              2 - ORANGE PEEL (1919 – France), NONE
              3 - HURRY ON (1913 – UK - the sire of Precipitation), (1x dam line)
              4 - PHALARIS (1913 – UK - the sire of full brothers Pharos and Fairway) (9x dam line)
              5 - BLANDFORD (1919 – Ireland - the sire of Blenheim - 1927) (4x both sides combined)
              6 - TOURBILLON (1928 – France - the sire of Djebel - 1937) (5x dam line only)
              7 - PHAROS (1920 - son of Phalaris, full brother of Fairway) (12x both sides combined)
              8 - FAIRWAY (1925 - son of Phalaris, full brother of Pharos) NONE
              9 – HYPERION (1930 – UK - sire of jumping sires Owen Tudor, Hornbeam, Alibhai, High Hat, Khaled, Aristophanes, & Heliopolis, among many others.) (1x sire line)
              10 - PRECIPITATION (1933 - UK, son of Hurry On, sire of Furioso) (1x dam line)

              I plan on eventing my boy when he grows up. William had reviewed his pedigree and said it was a great combination and really liked that he has Sacremento Song in it as well.
              The pedigree stuff is really fascinating. I’ve been researching back on my boy.
              Cloverfox Stables

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ZIL View Post
                My mare has the Blue Larkspur far back...through Buckpasser, so I imagine that there are several people on COTH that might find this combination you are talking about. What are some well known horses in the Relic line? So far I am not seeing any in my mare's pedigree.
                Through Buckpasser?

                Hmmm....yup, there it is...Blue Larkspur. Viney?
                Inner Bay Equestrian
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                KERx

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                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  William Micklem is British, so he wasn't aware of the Fair Play line, which is an American specialty. That's the line for Man O'War, Discovery (sire for the dams of Native Dancer, Bold Ruler, Intent and one other major sire whose name escapes me at the moment.), Chance Play and a few more really top horses who have proved themselves in sport. Even Seabiscuit was a Fair Play.

                  That's just about the last active line to Matchem left anywhere in the world.

                  Ogden Phipps who bred Busanda bought many of the mares that were sold in the Col. E. R. Bradley/Idle Hour dispersal in 1946 or 1947, and that's probably how he got Busanda's dam. Colonel Bradley owned Black Toney, and all his horse's names began with B. I know he owned La Troienne, and he owned Vaila, and he pretty only used his own stallions Like Black Toney, Black Servant, Balladier, and Blue Larkspur on his mares. However, La Troienne was sold eventually to Greentree Stud, but I don't know if she had any produce after the sale.

                  Just looked. She was in foal to Blue Larkspur for another very good daughter when she was sold at the age of 21. She was bred again to a different sire line for a foal that was very forgettable, then retired.

                  The La Troienne/Black Toney foals were amazing, and her female descendants were, as a rule, superb broodmares, and some of them were also very good race mares. Businesslike, Busanda's dam, was not one of those and neither was La Troienne. Busanda ran her heart out and got better as she got older. There were more than 800 stakes winners from La Troienne's descendants when the TB Heritage portrait was done, and she's still chugging along in tail female in stakes winners. Just an amazing mare.
                  Last edited by vineyridge; Nov. 16, 2010, 07:38 PM.
                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I recently discussed on of my TB mare's pedigree in toying with the idea of breeding her to a TB stallion with the same tail female line. Her dam's damsire is Olden Times, a Relic son.
                    http://www.pedigreequery.com/camass

                    I recently had an "ah-ha!" moment when I discovered that the 4* TB event horse, Sloopy, has Olden Times & In Reality on his sire side with a tail female line going straight to Blue Larkspur daughter, Heavenly Blue.
                    http://www.pedigreequery.com/sloopy

                    Info on Sloopy:
                    http://www.johnwilliamseventing.com/sloopy.html

                    There is a TB broodie being offered for sale who is a uterine sibling to Sloopy, with sireline to Teddy (that I would dearly love to have!)
                    http://www.warmbloods-for-sale.com/H...059&UserID=693
                    http://www.selahwaysporthorses.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Just ran across this pedigree where someone bred their Buckpasser/Olden Times (etc.) mare to the Trakehner Silver Twist...whose damsire is Good Twist.
                      http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/inde...mall_font=1&l=
                      I think this is the same mare's 2009 colt (Rhinestone) by Rosenthal (though the spelling is a little off)...video looks like a nice (not very flappable!) youngster:
                      http://www.knollmandressage.com/Sale-Horses.html
                      http://www.selahwaysporthorses.com/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        These "history" pedigree threads are SO interesting. I just looked up my guys pedigree, holy cow he's got some of these names (granted 5+ gens back) many times over, but NOT linebred. Hyperion, Fair Play, Phalaris, St Simon, Chaucer... Goober's got some old time royalty back there! SO cool! For a while, I thought his only claim to fame from lineage was his grandsire, Halo. Guess I was really in the dark!

                        Check him out! I'm very proud of my modern TB who has NO Mr.P, Native Dancer OR Northern Dancer. Granted this most likely from being bred in Argentina !

                        http://www.pedigreequery.com/for+gain

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          So, what stallions would be useful with mares rich in these bloodlines? What about the Gem Twist clone or Triple Twist? Has anyone scanned the Bloodhorse and TB Times Stallion Registers for possibilities? Of course, the SF's have some stallions that would correlate also. I know and agree there is more to matching than the pedigree, but a compiling a list of stallions would be a nice start!
                          PennyG

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Heliodoro View Post
                            These "history" pedigree threads are SO interesting. I just looked up my guys pedigree, holy cow he's got some of these names (granted 5+ gens back) many times over, but NOT linebred. Hyperion, Fair Play, Phalaris, St Simon, Chaucer... Goober's got some old time royalty back there! SO cool! For a while, I thought his only claim to fame from lineage was his grandsire, Halo. Guess I was really in the dark!

                            Check him out! I'm very proud of my modern TB who has NO Mr.P, Native Dancer OR Northern Dancer. Granted this most likely from being bred in Argentina !

                            http://www.pedigreequery.com/for+gain
                            Like my mare, your horse also has Nothirdchance in the pedigree, whose grandsire is Blue Larkspur, which was bred to Flaming Swords, sired by Man o' War. So, that might also seem to be a desirable combination, though it is not Man O'War through War Relic.

                            As for sires, what do you think of something like Voyager's Quest? Stud fee is $1000.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Voyager's Quest might be a very good choice, especially for people with mares with Mr. Prospector. Roberto and Dynaformer are the current leading lines for chasers in North America, frequently with a Mr. P cross. They usually bring stamina and good dense bone to the table, although Barbaro and his family have been exceptions, since they seem to be fighting leg ills constantly. The Voyager's Quest pedigree has many, many good names that are proved in sport, including a lovely double to Olympia.
                              "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                              Thread killer Extraordinaire

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Cool lines to have in a TB mare.
                                Clavier
                                My Babu
                                Tamerlane
                                OldenTimes
                                Sir Ivor
                                Bonne Nuit
                                Castle Magic
                                Comet Shine

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I've never seen a Dynaformer offspring in person...do they have good temperaments? I tried to find a pic of Voyager's Quest online but had no success.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Here's another one....the stallion Babamist ('chaser/eventer)
                                    who was direct sireline to Relic:
                                    http://www.pedigreequery.com/babamist
                                    Here is a page from Lanefield Farms in NY, which stands his son, Mystic Replica:
                                    http://www.pedigreequery.com/babamist

                                    Love these threads, Viney!
                                    http://www.selahwaysporthorses.com/

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      We can also add Raise A Native to the family. He was out of a line that traces tail female to Black Servant's dam, a daughter of Padua. Which gives more choice to those multitudes who have him in their mares (or stallions.) I now need to check and see what, if anything, the combinations with him and the other lines have done--Particularly where soundness is implicated. I know RAN has had many talented sport horses from his descendants both here and in Europe.
                                      Last edited by vineyridge; Nov. 20, 2010, 10:53 AM.
                                      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                      Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        This is INTERESTING!

                                        The very great UK event horse sire, Primitive Rising, is by a RAN son out of an Olden Times/Relic mare.
                                        Last edited by vineyridge; Nov. 21, 2010, 12:02 AM.
                                        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                        Thread killer Extraordinaire

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