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OCD Inheritance and Ethics?

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  • OCD Inheritance and Ethics?

    Hello everyone,

    I am relatively new to breeding and have a few questions. OCD seems to be a concern for warmblood breeders. I recently saw this thread on another bulletin board: http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com...re-366745.html As a breeder, do you feel that OCD is or isn’t a heritable condition? Do you think it can be managed entirely by how you feed and exercise your horses? Do you believe that a breeder should disclose whether or not a mare or a stallion has had an OCD lesion and if it has or has not been removed? Do you have an ethical problem with a breeder that doesn’t disclose when they know the mare or stallion has had offspring with lesions?


    I hadn't really heard much about OCD before and a few people had pointed me in the direction of this forum for more information in the breeding dept. (Lots of interesting things to read up on!) Either way, from my own research and reading up this seemed like a good place to start. I really appreciate any information anyone can give me. Thanks everyone for your time!

  • #2
    And also... hello! I'm a long time lurker/reader and first time poster.

    Comment


    • #3
      Um, yeah, don't think anyone is going to touch this over here. Maybe we would if there wasn't that link attached to the post.

      Terri
      COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

      "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

      Comment


      • #4
        This is a very difficult question as OCD inheritance appears to be multi-factoral, ie there are both genetic and environmental influences that cause the appearance of OCD. As a breeder I would not use a stud with known OCD or that had OCD in his offspring. I am willing to take a chance breeding a mare with OCD if I think that the way she was raised (too little area to move it, too much feed, particularly high protein feed) contributed to the OCD. If there is OCD in her foals she is obviously out of the program. Some of the warmblood breeds require xrays prior to approving a stallion some do not.
        I raise my foals pretty hard - large fields in a hilly region, limited feed. It has really helped with the soundness of my horses. I have had only 2 cases of OCD in over 60 foals raised. One was minor (and has 6 full sibs without OCD) and one required a surgery though the horse was never lame(and I will not repeat the cross).The buyer of the horse that had the surgery was aware of the surgery and was not concerned. 58 out of 60 without OCD is not bad for warmbloods.
        Cindy Bergmann
        Canterbury Court
        559-903-4814
        www.canterbury-court.com

        Comment


        • #5
          You can find a helpful article about existing research on OCD development here -- http://www.hanoverian.org/downloads/articles.shtml

          Comment


          • #6
            This is the same breeder who was recently published in the Hanoverian magazine about her inspection of her own mares in her own breeding program. 12 of her mares were presented. 5 Oldenburg, 5 TB, 2 Holsteiner. Only one mare was accepted into the main mare book, a Holsteiner. The article was not very complementary and discussed why her mares were not acceptable. Mares with known OCD should generally not be in a reputable breeding program, no matter what color or bling they bring to the table, or what stallion they are by.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TipsMyTop View Post
              Hello everyone,

              I am relatively new to breeding and have a few questions. OCD seems to be a concern for warmblood breeders. I recently saw this thread on another bulletin board: http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com...re-366745.html As a breeder, do you feel that OCD is or isn’t a heritable condition? Do you think it can be managed entirely by how you feed and exercise your horses? Do you believe that a breeder should disclose whether or not a mare or a stallion has had an OCD lesion and if it has or has not been removed? Do you have an ethical problem with a breeder that doesn’t disclose when they know the mare or stallion has had offspring with lesions?


              I hadn't really heard much about OCD before and a few people had pointed me in the direction of this forum for more information in the breeding dept. (Lots of interesting things to read up on!) Either way, from my own research and reading up this seemed like a good place to start. I really appreciate any information anyone can give me. Thanks everyone for your time!
              I agree that this would have been a great thread provided you left out the link you posted. That was not a very classy thing to do.
              Kim
              'Like' my facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Calla...946873?sk=wall

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Callaway View Post
                I agree that this would have been a great thread provided you left out the link you posted. That was not a very classy thing to do.
                I think probably this wasn't posted as an honest question about OCD...

                If you read through the thread on the other board you can see there are lots of nasty allegations, including one from another very well-known, very well-respected breeder in regards to a large amount of money owed from the breeder in question. Sad for everyone involved, no matter what the story.
                Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
                https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Canterbury Court View Post
                  I am willing to take a chance breeding a mare with OCD if I think that the way she was raised (too little area to move it, too much feed, particularly high protein feed) contributed to the OCD.
                  High protein has not been shown to be a contributing factor for OCD.

                  A high protein feed could contribute to the occurrence of OCD if it was fed in amounts such that the calorie intake was excessive (but this would not be different than any other kind of feed fed in excess), or from a source and in amounts that created a mineral imbalance in the overall diet. But excess protein in and of itself has not been shown to cause OCD. Excess calories to protein ratio of the diet, and imbalanced minerals, along with exercise restriction and feeding practices or medical issues causing insulin spikes and rapid growth/compensatory growth, are some of the more common environmental causes of OCD.
                  Last edited by Waterwitch; Nov. 11, 2010, 11:08 AM. Reason: typo
                  Liz
                  Ainninn House Stud
                  Irish Draughts and Connemaras
                  Co. Westmeath, Ireland

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    We've been noting comments about OCD from European breeders who are quoted in the new Hector book about the evolution of warmbloods. That's a separate thread in this forum.

                    Sporthorse vets in Europe grade the appearance of OCD. There are acceptable shades of grey.
                    www.oakhollowstable.blogspot.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Agree - very poor taste to put that link here

                      About the protein and OCD - it's been proven that is not a cause. A study was even done on a fair number of horses/mares/foals (couple hundred iirc), where something like 190% of the protein requirements were fed, and there was no more, no less OCD than when regular protein requirements were fed.

                      Nobody feeds THAT much more protein (well, maybe there are some, but it's not common), and if they can't induce it with that much, well...
                      ______________________________
                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Hillside H Ranch View Post
                        I think probably this wasn't posted as an honest question about OCD...

                        If you read through the thread on the other board you can see there are lots of nasty allegations, including one from another very well-known, very well-respected breeder in regards to a large amount of money owed from the breeder in question. Sad for everyone involved, no matter what the story.
                        Actually quite the contrary. I'm sorry it appears that way, but my whole inquiry into OCD absolutely deals also with the ethics of breeders...which I clearly stated in my original post (no smoke or mirrors there!). I really and truley dont' know enough about it yet to form an opinion one way or another. I felt that thread from the other forum was a perfect example, as there are people on both sides of the fence, and they're putting both the pros and the cons, and facts and information out there. I had asked around to find a different reputable forum to inquire about OCD as I assume a new group of fresh faces can help give me a broader view of OCD in general. Again, I appologize if anyone feels this post was anything more then a search for knowledge
                        *
                        Canterbury court, those odds definitely do seem good absolutely. So as a breeder you'd not breed a cross again if the offspring was positive for OCD? And what about if the mare in question you were unsure of her environment growing up? Would that factor into your decision? Also, in selling offspring, would you disclose to a potential buyer that the mare had OCD?
                        *
                        DennisM, thank you for the link! Very interesting article, I appreciate it.
                        *
                        If anyone knows of any other links to articles or studies on OCD I really would appreciate the information...
                        *
                        I'm also curious if the severity of this condition can be even remotely assimilated to HYPP or SCIDs?
                        *
                        Thanks again for information/opinions.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          (I apologize for any weird formatting or errors, I'm trying to type this on my phone!)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            My only point is that these people are well known on this board and there is more going on (it seems) than OCD.

                            Personally, I had my TB mare x-rayed before breeding her to stallions that were free of OCD. All good and so far. As I am not a big breeder I don't feel I'm qualified to answer more specifically.

                            Terri
                            COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                            "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              As the owner of a mare who had an OCD lesion removed from her stifle, as well as has mild changes in her neck that also appear to be early onset DJD, it was very eye opening just how prevalent OCD is, and how people simply do not talk about it.

                              I ran into several mare owners who have premium, some imported, mares that have OCD or had surgery for OCD and breed because of the quality of the offspring. I also ran into a lot of people that were riding horses with known OCD, or had horses they bought that had surgery for OCD that were now very successful performance horses.

                              One mare I know of was an imported premium mare with OCD, and all 3 of her offspring had OCD as well. All 4 were successfully showing (however 2 were visably off to me, but one still winning prizes at big A shows).

                              Anyway, possibly ethically breeders should tell you. I would imagine if they are selling offspring that are OCD free they most likely will not. I would hope they would when selling in-utero, I would also hope they would treat offspring of OCD parents as if they are at risk, and feed accordingly as well as xray early on, but I have found most do not. I think as a buyer one just has to be aware that there are a lot of mares out there that have OCD - I am sure lots that the owners don't even know! I have yet to encounter a breeder that has a full set of xrays on a mare just because it's the right thing to do, lots of WB mares and TB mares that have been nothing but broodmares and have never been xrayed so how would one even know? Also lots of young mares get through approvals with high scores with OCD lesions, as there is no xrays requirement. So, buyer and owner beware.
                              On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Dealing with the topic and not the link attached, I think it brings up the point that buyers need to educate themselves and ask questions! Lots of mares are retired to broodmare programs due to injury or unsoundness - buyers should be asking for details! And breeders should answer truthfully.
                                www.elitehuntersales.com

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Oh I finally read the link. fwiw, all the experiences I had were mainly with the Hunter breeding business, so it does not surprise me in the least that someone involved in hunter breeding would buy a nice, well bred mare for hunter breeding that had OCD.

                                  I don't have a problem with it really, if they don't lie about it when asked, and manage their breeding and foal raising operations accordingly. I know of another person who bought a yearling hunter prospect by a well known hunter sire, from a breeder/handler that is well known in the IHF circles. The breeder disclosed the OCD, priced the yearling accordingly, the surgery was done, and the horse is now successfully showing and sound.

                                  Honestly, I found that OCD isn't as big a deal in the Hunter world as it is in dressage.
                                  On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Wow, that thread was quite an eye-opener!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Paul Schockemohle is quoted in the Hector book as saying he breeds to a stallion with OCD if he knows where the chip is, how it is sitting, and how big of a problem it is, or isn't.

                                      European breeders have the top of the sport as their goal, not to breed an OCD free animal.

                                      Americans seem to see OCD as black or white. Europeans see OCD in shades of grey.

                                      The quotes in the Hector book are very revealing.
                                      www.oakhollowstable.blogspot.com

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by TipsMyTop View Post
                                        As a breeder, do you feel that OCD is or isn’t a heritable condition?
                                        The evidence is that it isn't.

                                        An inherited or geneit predisposition is VERY different to suggesting its directly and genetically inherited.

                                        So some breeds have the predisposition for rapid growth and that's a factor. There's no clinical evidence though that it's anything more than that.

                                        http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...m/bc/90796.htm

                                        Do you think it can be managed entirely by how you feed and exercise your horses?
                                        That's the evidence.

                                        Do you believe that a breeder should disclose whether or not a mare or a stallion has had an OCD lesion and if it has or has not been removed?
                                        There's no reason not to disclose it. There's no ethical necessity to disclose it.

                                        I'd suggest though that a reputable breeder would be talking to prospective owners about the risks and how it relates to diet etc.

                                        Do you have an ethical problem with a breeder that doesn’t disclose when they know the mare or stallion has had offspring with lesions?
                                        It's not a condition that is directly inherited so NO, I've no problem with that from an ethical perspective.

                                        If someone is asked and lies though then that's unethical and dishonest in my opinion.

                                        http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...m/bc/90796.htm
                                        Last edited by Thomas_1; Nov. 11, 2010, 12:46 PM.

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