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Frozen Semen = LFG?

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  • Frozen Semen = LFG?

    I am thinking through offering frozen semen on my stallion and have a number of questions... Please bear with me. I've searched the forum and not found much in the way of definitive answers. I'm trying to work out my contract, pricing, etc. and consider this forum to be the prime area for this type of research. You all are a wealth of knowledge!

    These are my questions so far....
    How often does frozen semen offer a LFG?
    If there is no LFG, is the rate per dose considerably less?
    If a LFG is provided, is the rate the same as by AI or live cover?

    Anything else I should consider?

    I am asking, as I've noticed that sometimes frozen doses are offered for quite a bit less (half sometimes) of the regular stud fee. Is this a relatively common practice?

    I have a phone appt with a contract lawyer next week to go over that end of it.
    Last edited by Simrat; Jan. 29, 2008, 10:43 PM. Reason: added more info.
    Akal Ranch Blog - http://akalranch.com/
    Simrat Khalsa Fine Art & Photography - http://www.simratkhalsa.com/
  • Original Poster

    #2
    I realize that this might be a sensitive topic. Is that why there are over 50 views and no responses?
    Akal Ranch Blog - http://akalranch.com/
    Simrat Khalsa Fine Art & Photography - http://www.simratkhalsa.com/

    Comment


    • #3
      When I had a stallion in this country I only offered him via frozen semen. That was back in the 90's when frozen wasn't as accepted as it is now. I offered the semen with a LFG and the client had to pay the booking fee with the stud fee due upon successful sonogram of the mare within 14 to 18 days after insemination. I never even considered just selling doses because the vets were not that familiar with it then. I was also quite lenient with folks that didn't want to stay in the contract and would refund booking and stud fees.

      If I were in that situation now I would probably offer frozen doses with no LFG for so much, and if clients want an LFG then I would add some money on top of that.

      You need to make sure that the frozen semen can get mares pregnant before you market it. High motility and sperm count numbers don't mean anything if they don't result in foals. So have some test breedings to test all those numbers and to make sure it's viable stuff, then market appropriately.

      Good luck!
      Siegi Belz
      www.stalleuropa.com
      2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
      Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        I have a test mare lined up and will certainly make sure that we have a pregnancy before marketing. I also want to know before investing a lot in the collection and freezing. I hope to have that lined in in the next couple of months. I just want to have my other information in line and ready to go.

        Thanks for the reply!
        Akal Ranch Blog - http://akalranch.com/
        Simrat Khalsa Fine Art & Photography - http://www.simratkhalsa.com/

        Comment


        • #5
          We offer a LFG with frozen on our stallion, and the option to switch to fresh if they have problems and it is available.
          "It's not how good you ride, It's how good your horse covers for you." -Kristan
          Magic Rose Farm- home of Beste Gold & Hot Shot
          Beste Gold & Offspring on Facebook
          Magic Rose Farm Warmbloods on FB

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Simrat View Post
            These are my questions so far....
            How often does frozen semen offer a LFG?
            The semen never offers the LFG. It is always the stallion owner that offers the guarantee.
            www.OneJumpAhead.ca

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Okay.... I stand corrected. All questions apply to the stallion owner.
              Akal Ranch Blog - http://akalranch.com/
              Simrat Khalsa Fine Art & Photography - http://www.simratkhalsa.com/

              Comment


              • #8
                An opinion from a mare owner who has not used frozen ... if I am going to the expense of a vet using frozen, I will use the best stallion I can afford with a competition record .... and name recognition.

                I'd make sure there was a realistic demand for my stallion before I'd go to the expense of freezing him.

                And as Siegi said, you need to have your own test mares or give the straws to someone who will test it for you.
                www.oakhollowstable.blogspot.com

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Yes, I realize this. I am not looking to market him to the general public. My market will be among my own rare breed community. No rose colored glasses here.... I already have some firm interest, but even if that doesn't pan out, I won't be too disappointed.

                  Mare owners opinions are most welcome!
                  Akal Ranch Blog - http://akalranch.com/
                  Simrat Khalsa Fine Art & Photography - http://www.simratkhalsa.com/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hilltop Farm is one of the few who offer lfg with frozen semen for their stallions. They send out 3 doses at a time and encourage mare owners to use the timed insemination protocol. They require that a vet fill out paperwork stating the doses used, and if there are doses left over will ask for their return. I used one of their stallions in 2003 for an ET at least partially because they did give a lfg and made it so easy for me as a mare owner.
                    Mary Lou
                    http://www.homeagainfarm.com

                    https://www.facebook.com/HomeAgainFarmHanoverians

                    Member OMGiH I loff my mares clique

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                    • #11
                      I've always treated frozen the same way as fresh. Same LFG, same stallion service fee, same 3 shipments of two insemination doses per breeding cycle, etc. But of course, we've had multiple pregnancies with conception rates equivalent to fresh, so I'm very confident in offering this kind of contract.

                      I've considered also providing mo's the option of buying by the insemination dose with no LFG for those who would want to give up the guarantees given with a standard LFG contract for lower fees. It can be substantially less expensive if the mare catches right away, but it could also wind up being more expensive if they have a problem breeder and/or the mare slips.

                      Why not offer both?
                      www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
                      "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
                      Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by siegi b. View Post

                        You need to make sure that the frozen semen can get mares pregnant before you market it. High motility and sperm count numbers don't mean anything if they don't result in foals. So have some test breedings to test all those numbers and to make sure it's viable stuff, then market appropriately.

                        Good luck!

                        So I'm curious and hope I'm not terribly off topic. We will be freezing Bravo on Feb. 5th but he is not proven with frozen. I was thinking of offering this frozen semen free to a limited number of mares to test it. I would not offer a LFG, charge collection fees. I might charge a small booking fee. Do you think this is a reasonable way to test his frozen semen?? I hope this isn't too far off topic.
                        Chris Misita
                        www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net Home of Bravo and Warrick!
                        To dare; progress comes at this price. All sublime conquests are, more or less, the rewards of daring.
                        Victor Hugo

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Home Again Farm View Post
                          Hilltop Farm is one of the few who offer lfg with frozen semen for their stallions. They send out 3 doses at a time and encourage mare owners to use the timed insemination protocol. They require that a vet fill out paperwork stating the doses used, and if there are doses left over will ask for their return. I used one of their stallions in 2003 for an ET at least partially because they did give a lfg and made it so easy for me as a mare owner.
                          I have seen others going this route. I think they are trying to stay competitive with stallion ownes that offer LFG for fresh.

                          I know King Ridge offers LFG on their stallions who are all only available frozen.
                          www.OneJumpAhead.ca

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by misita View Post
                            So I'm curious and hope I'm not terribly off topic. We will be freezing Bravo on Feb. 5th but he is not proven with frozen. I was thinking of offering this frozen semen free to a limited number of mares to test it. I would not offer a LFG, charge collection fees. I might charge a small booking fee. Do you think this is a reasonable way to test his frozen semen?? I hope this isn't too far off topic.
                            This is just what I am doing. I found a receptive mare owner (I really like the mare too) and will waive stud fee. I might have her pay the shipping and any container deposit, but likely nothing else. I will be having the collection and freezing done anyway.

                            One we have that first pregnancy, I'll figure out the rest.
                            Akal Ranch Blog - http://akalranch.com/
                            Simrat Khalsa Fine Art & Photography - http://www.simratkhalsa.com/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              That's what I want too. They pay the related expences so it doesn't cost me anything other than freezing the semen. You won't charge a minimum booking fee? Probably best not to since it is an experiment.

                              My understanding is that just because your frozen semen has motility doesn't neccessarily mean it's fertile and the only way to determine that it is fertile is a pregnancy.
                              Chris Misita
                              www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net Home of Bravo and Warrick!
                              To dare; progress comes at this price. All sublime conquests are, more or less, the rewards of daring.
                              Victor Hugo

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                We have frozen semen from 8 stallions donated to this year's Oldenburg stallion service auction. Six of those include a LFG of some sort. The other two may also offer LFGs, but they didn't specify it in their auction contracts.

                                I think that if the stallion is still reproductively sound and fresh semen is available as a back-up, there is no reason to NOT offer a LFG. I would however expect frozen with a LFG to be priced higher than frozen sold "by the dose" without a LFG.

                                Regarding test doses for a young stallion - I know several stallion owners who have given away frozen doses for their guys in the first years. I have a few friends who got "free" foals that way - including registered Hanoverian and Oldenburg foals. It was a great deal for them, because they didn't have to pay any booking or stud fees, and also a great deal for the stallion owner because they got their boy's frozen semen proven.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by misita View Post
                                  So I'm curious and hope I'm not terribly off topic. We will be freezing Bravo on Feb. 5th but he is not proven with frozen. I was thinking of offering this frozen semen free to a limited number of mares to test it. I would not offer a LFG, charge collection fees. I might charge a small booking fee. Do you think this is a reasonable way to test his frozen semen?? I hope this isn't too far off topic.
                                  Since booking fees for many stallions run close to the single dose fee, (and even if they didn't) I wouldn't pay a booking fee to have the test mare for a newly-frozen stallion. It is going to cost me the same to try for a foal from the test stallion as a proven stallion.

                                  There are a few stallions I looked at last year who offered quite good guarantees for their semen. A few even offered money back if there was no success. A couple didn't offer live foal or money back guarantees but instead offered reduced prices on subsequent doses.
                                  Mystic Owl Sporthorses
                                  www.mysticowlsporthorses.com

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Actually - it will cost you more Clint. $225 and up to ship the frozen in a dry shipper from where it's stored, to your vet's tank.

                                    I really feel that if you are going to offer a test-breed with frozen, then it needs to be free. $225 and up for shipping is more than enough for the MO to bear.
                                    "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by ahf View Post
                                      Actually - it will cost you more Clint. $225 and up to ship the frozen in a dry shipper from where it's stored, to your vet's tank.

                                      I really feel that if you are going to offer a test-breed with frozen, then it needs to be free. $225 and up for shipping is more than enough for the MO to bear.
                                      Yeah, I know. The only way that works to a MO's benefit is should you have to rebreed after round one, the semen is already there and you don't have another collection fee. But then, you have another $600 cycle. Sometimes (read frequently) I wonder why we do this.
                                      Mystic Owl Sporthorses
                                      www.mysticowlsporthorses.com

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I wouldn't pay even a small booking fee for the opportunity to do a test breeding at my expense with one of my mares.
                                        www.oakhollowstable.blogspot.com

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