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COLOR BREEDERS: Silver Dapple (Z gene) in Warmbloods

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  • Original Poster

    #61
    Originally posted by vtdobes View Post
    Most of the horses posted here look bay or chestnut to me (the stallions mentioned early on)....not silver or any cream dilute.
    That is very typical of the silver dapple gene. It can be nearly impossible to discern by appearance alone.

    DNA confirmed silver bay (or brown):

    http://www.silverspringfarm.net/andr...1335813996.jpg

    DNA confirmed silver buckskin:

    http://www.silverspringfarm.net/images/angel2.jpg

    The dam of the mare above. Silver buckskin, confirmed via DNA tested progeny.

    http://www.silverspringfarm.net/images/stardust.jpg

    DNA confirmed brown silver:

    http://www.champsguthrie.skyhawkranc...eb2LSc200b.jpg
    We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #62
      Originally posted by Mara View Post
      I really wish I could find a better pic -

      It's just a big chunk of white in an otherwise dark tail, originating from the dock. It has clearly defined edges. It's almost like someone took a white fake tail and stuck it into the real one.

      If it helps, he's Dutch Warmblood by Hors La Loi out of a Voltaire mare. I've been obsessed with this horse since I saw him in January! McLain Ward rides.
      It sounds like gulastra plume. Gulastra plume seems to show up a lot on bay horses that have white markings - just like him!
      We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson

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      • Original Poster

        #63
        Originally posted by alliekat View Post
        We love our Silver Buckskin pony mare We find out if she is in foal to Escapade at the end of this week.
        She is SO cute. I remember when you first posted about her a long time ago.

        Do you know her agouti status? It would be cool if you ended up with a silver smoky black Escapade baby! That color is really wild - almost looks purple.
        We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson

        Comment


        • #64
          It's funny because almost all of the black based silver carrying Morgans I've seen *look* like they are silver but most the photos posted here do not; especially the ones just above in those links (except maybe for the buckskin silver). Chestnuts are obviously not included in my statement as silver does not affect red hair.

          http://www.morgancolors.com/silverdapple.htm

          Comment


          • #65
            Vocas definitely sounds rabicano. Skunktail is another name for rabicano.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #66
              Originally posted by vtdobes View Post
              It's funny because almost all of the black based silver carrying Morgans I've seen *look* like they are silver but most the photos posted here do not; especially the ones just above in those links (except maybe for the buckskin silver). Chestnuts are obviously not included in my statement as silver does not affect red hair.

              http://www.morgancolors.com/silverdapple.htm
              Silver tends to be really extreme in certain breeds like ponies, RMH's, Morgans etc.

              For one reason or another it tends to be more muted in QH's and Paints. Not always but often. In this article there's a photo of a very extreme silver dapple Paint named BN Pecos Pete:

              http://www.painthorsejournal.com/pas.../PreciousMetal

              I also think that certain genes have a muting affect on silver - like cream, brown and sooty.
              We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson

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              • #67
                Morgans tend to be, umm, speshul LOL They do tend to exaggerate things like Silver.
                ______________________________
                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                • Original Poster

                  #68
                  Originally posted by JB View Post
                  Morgans tend to be, umm, speshul LOL They do tend to exaggerate things like Silver.
                  AND cream! Where are those pics of that palomino morgan mare that looks black?
                  We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    No kidding!
                    http://morgancolors.com/heathermoorgoldbanner.jpg
                    http://morgancolors.com/metigishemariahsideadult.jpg

                    It's interesting though that THE oddest presentations of dilute in Morgans seem to be the red-based dilutions. All the buckskin/smoky brown shades I've seen look relatively normal when compared to other breeds. Yes, there's the odd really dark one, but other breeds have that too.
                    ______________________________
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                    • #70
                      Silver Buckskin going to the Old na this year

                      I thought I had the first, but apparently there are others. This is my Silver Buckskin filly out of my GOV mare, Zena (by Zeus out of a Goldstern mare) and by the Sec A silver Cremello stallion Creme De Mint. Since Welsh bloodlines are accepted by the German registries, I requested a single use breeding permit from the Oldenburg Na. They reviewed the stallion and approved it.... which mean this filly is going to the inspection. I'm extremely happy with this filly, the mare is 21 years old... and has given me quite a gift. I also have to say, I Love Creme De Mint! He belongs to my mother, who insists on advertising him with pictures that make him look long... but he's actually very nicely balanced. He has a lovely neck and a tremendous trot that he reproduces consistently. His foals have been elegant and impressive both in color and movement. The other Silver Welsh mentioned in this thread, Golden Wonder, is actually Mints son.... and is a fine example of what he produces. If you have a big bodied mare, and would like a fancy foal.... Mint will NOT disappoint you! Just look at this beautiful week old filly..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ubvrFEIIPw
                      I can't WAIT to see the first silver black warmblood competing. People are going to gush.... magazines will write articles and everyone will want one. Right now, everyone is breeding black... so its easy to see where the next step could be. I hope SOMEONE is working on getting a colt on the ground with the bloodlines to get approved! Get busy folks!
                      ~~~The first step is admitting you have a problem.~~~
                      ~~My name is Wendy, and I'm a horse-a-holic.~~

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Mara View Post
                        I really wish I could find a better pic -

                        It's just a big chunk of white in an otherwise dark tail, originating from the dock. It has clearly defined edges. It's almost like someone took a white fake tail and stuck it into the real one.

                        If it helps, he's Dutch Warmblood by Hors La Loi out of a Voltaire mare. I've been obsessed with this horse since I saw him in January! McLain Ward rides.


                        Ooh, this looks like mine! I had always wonder what kind of color she was. I thought she would turn grey as her sire is grey but I had my doubt. Her dam is Calvados/ Voltaire so Voltaire could be the one with the Rabicano gene? What do you think?

                        http://www.bloomingtonfarm.com/apps/...toid=129585444
                        Suzanne
                        bloomingtonfarm.com
                        Breeder of Royal Dutch Sport Horse

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by SunFire Farm View Post
                          I thought I had the first, but apparently there are others. This is my Silver Buckskin filly out of my GOV mare, Zena (by Zeus out of a Goldstern mare) and by the Sec A silver Cremello stallion Creme De Mint. Since Welsh bloodlines are accepted by the German registries, I requested a single use breeding permit from the Oldenburg Na. They reviewed the stallion and approved it.... which mean this filly is going to the inspection. I'm extremely happy with this filly, the mare is 21 years old... and has given me quite a gift. I also have to say, I Love Creme De Mint! He belongs to my mother, who insists on advertising him with pictures that make him look long... but he's actually very nicely balanced. He has a lovely neck and a tremendous trot that he reproduces consistently. His foals have been elegant and impressive both in color and movement. The other Silver Welsh mentioned in this thread, Golden Wonder, is actually Mints son.... and is a fine example of what he produces. If you have a big bodied mare, and would like a fancy foal.... Mint will NOT disappoint you! Just look at this beautiful week old filly..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ubvrFEIIPw
                          I can't WAIT to see the first silver black warmblood competing. People are going to gush.... magazines will write articles and everyone will want one. Right now, everyone is breeding black... so its easy to see where the next step could be. I hope SOMEONE is working on getting a colt on the ground with the bloodlines to get approved! Get busy folks!
                          He is very pretty, but their website bothers me because it states there is an 80% chance he will produce black silver dapple when bred to a black mare, and that is just not true, since he is cremello he can not sire a black horse because every foal will carry the cream gene. Although I am sure that a smokey black with silver will look similar as just a black. Is his agouti status known?
                          http://community.webshots.com/user/jenn52318

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by TaliaCristianna View Post
                            That is very typical of the silver dapple gene. It can be nearly impossible to discern by appearance alone.

                            DNA confirmed silver bay (or brown):

                            http://www.silverspringfarm.net/andr...1335813996.jpg

                            DNA confirmed silver buckskin:

                            http://www.silverspringfarm.net/images/angel2.jpg

                            The dam of the mare above. Silver buckskin, confirmed via DNA tested progeny.

                            http://www.silverspringfarm.net/images/stardust.jpg

                            DNA confirmed brown silver:

                            http://www.champsguthrie.skyhawkranc...eb2LSc200b.jpg
                            Really interesting and shows how these genes can hide sometimes!
                            http://community.webshots.com/user/jenn52318

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by bloomingtonfarm View Post
                              Ooh, this looks like mine! I had always wonder what kind of color she was. I thought she would turn grey as her sire is grey but I had my doubt. Her dam is Calvados/ Voltaire so Voltaire could be the one with the Rabicano gene? What do you think?

                              http://www.bloomingtonfarm.com/apps/...toid=129585444

                              That doesn't look rabicano to me.....rabicano usually shows as rings of white hair at the top of the tail...in the body coat and sometimes extending into the tail but at the top. Ones that have a lot of expression at the tail top also usually have tons of expression in the elbow/cinch area and the flank area and often as well in vertical roan striping on the barrel (follows the ribs). This looks like a tail going gray OR a Gulastra Plume...and since I don't see gray signs otherwise I'd guess the plume.
                              Colored Cowhorse Ranch
                              www.coloredcowhorseranch.com
                              Northern NV

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by whbar158 View Post
                                He is very pretty, but their website bothers me because it states there is an 80% chance he will produce black silver dapple when bred to a black mare, and that is just not true, since he is cremello he can not sire a black horse because every foal will carry the cream gene. Although I am sure that a smokey black with silver will look similar as just a black. Is his agouti status known?
                                As far as I know, he does not have an Agouti gene. She hasn't tested, but he has not produced buckskin out of anything but bay mares. When bred to black, the foals have been silver black each time... but that was just good luck. I don't know where she got the 80% chance of silver black, maybe based on what he has produced. Mom doesn't have a great grasp on the color genetics, she's more concerned with temperament and ridability. I pushed her to test for silver when Mint produced his first silver smokey black foal for us. Of course, he would produce smokey black rather than a simply black... but as the creme gene should not affect black hair the resulting foal would look the same. A silver smokey black would look pretty much identical to a silver black. We have avoided using the term "smokey black" because many people picture it as a kind of gray or grulla... and misunderstand that it refers to the genes, not that actual color. So.... if you have a true black mare and she is homozygous for black you have a 50% chance of getting a silver-black. If she is black but carries a red gene then you have a 25% chance of getting silver black.
                                Here is why I feel like Mint is special though, since there are many breeds and stallions that have the silver gene: Welsh bloodlines are acceptable to most of the European WB registries and Mint has and reproduces the movement that is preferred by them.... plus at just 12.2 he will produce ponies out of many WB mares AND he will produce a fancy color when bred to almost any other color (obviously gray can cover his dilution, and a small percentage of black mares could have a plain looking smokey black foal). Did I mention I love this little stallion? LOL I adore him so much, I brought home his half sister out of the same mare... that also has the silver gene! Now I'm searching for a welsh stallion with impressive movement that is homozygous black..... know where I can find one!?
                                Last edited by SunFire Farm; Jun. 23, 2011, 10:13 PM. Reason: avoiding being too all inclusive
                                ~~~The first step is admitting you have a problem.~~~
                                ~~My name is Wendy, and I'm a horse-a-holic.~~

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Cream *can* affect the black pigment of a black horse. It's not the most common thing, but it can and does happen often enough to not be truly rare.

                                  The best example I know of is True Color's Nightlight filly
                                  http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueCol...n10-Devon5.jpg
                                  ______________________________
                                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Is True Color's Nightlight a smokey black? What a flashy filly! I do realize that what is supposed to happen and what actually happens with color won't always be the same thing. There are many variations of every color and color combination, and we certainly can not predict them all. I imagine that just like some horses that are genetically black tend to look more brown, there will be some black horses with creme gene's that are lighter than others.... just as with bay and palomino and every other color. The fantastic variety is one of the most wonderful thing about horses!
                                    ~~~The first step is admitting you have a problem.~~~
                                    ~~My name is Wendy, and I'm a horse-a-holic.~~

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Yep, tested smoky black who doesn't at all look like a regular black

                                      You are correct that MOST of they time they look, for all intents and purposes, black. But there are quite a few who just look....odd
                                      ______________________________
                                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #79
                                        Originally posted by SunFire Farm View Post
                                        A silver smokey black would look pretty much identical to a silver black.
                                        That's not quite true. Silver smoky black, from all the examples I have seen, is pretty darn unique looking.

                                        These are confirmed silver smoky blacks:

                                        http://www.emdeemountainhorses.com/images/100_1290.jpg

                                        http://www.brookridgemorgans.com/2007filly.htm

                                        This filly is silver smoky black + rabicano. She almost has a purple tint to her.

                                        http://www.silverequine.com/images/S...Lpfl1-200b.jpg

                                        http://sundragonsporthorses.com/Sold...pfl1-300bb.jpg

                                        I am really REALLY hoping my silver buckskin mare gives me a silver smoky black before she retires!
                                        We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          My silver filly, Safyre, has been confirmed in-foal to Sir Gregory for 2012. http://safyresporthorses.com/Safyre.htm
                                          www.SafyreSporthorses.com
                                          Visit us on Facebook

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