Secretariat's damline for sport, n'est pas???

[selah]

There is a Secretariat granddaughter @ CanterOhio...only 15H, but 56 starts

http://www.pedigreequery.com/tiffanys+award

[vineyridge]

Secretariat has actually crossed over into FEI level sports through eleven different sons and daughters and their descendants from mares to stallions to the GP jumper gelding Quantum Leap.

Most are eventers, and the vast majority are in Europe.

[ljshorses]

Don't forget the stallion Innkeeper owned by Ursula Ferrier. He is a son of Secretariat I believe and has many sporthorse offspring doing well.

[vineyridge]

Don't forget the stallion Innkeeper owned by Ursula Ferrier. He is a son of Secretariat I believe and has many sporthorse offspring doing well.

Innkeeper is the son of Secretariat out of an Northern Dancer/Mr. P mare. He's not had any get in FEI level eventing or jumping or dressage to date.

[farmgirl88]

Ursula also has an Innkeeper son standing at her place now too.

His name is INNVERNESS and if his conformation doesnt strikingly resembly BIG RED; i'm not sure who does!!

He was bred for her by Hilltop when Innkeeper was standing there.

He is Oldenburg/ISR Certified and was/will be exhibited at the 2010 performance testing.

He is really lovely

[Megaladon]

Hmm...I have a great-granddaughter of Somethingroyal!

Viney, would you be willing to give me some input on her pedigree if I shared it with you?

[grayarabpony]

Secretariat has actually crossed over into FEI level sports through eleven different descendants from mares to stallion to the GP jumper gelding Quantum Leap.

Anybody know Quantum Leap's pedigree?

[Hopalong]

http://www.pedigreequery.com/im+indy+gold
Can anyone tell me if this gelding has "sporthorse" bloodlines? Of course I see lots of names that I know (as successful racehorses), but what does he look like bloodline wise for an event horse?
Here are photos:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...d=112942126725
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...d=112942126725
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...d=112942126725

[Hopalong]

And now, just out of curiosity, if Viney reads my posts , I'm wondering about two other TB's that I have and like very much. All of my other horses are warmbloods, but I am more and more enamored by the TB bloodlines!

Here is the pedigree of my daughter's event horse, who is a very scopey jumper and has a great gallop stride and stamina. Does his pedigree predict that?:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.p...g=5&p=0&f=1&l=

And here is a classically beautiful broodmare I owned, who produced two beautiful, talented daughters for me, one a full TB by The Last Like, and one by the KWPN sire Val Blanc. (although they were of different breeds, they shared a grandsire, Val De Loir XX) The KWPN cross daughter went on to have two very athletic sons for me, one a dressage horse by Ferro (KWPN) and one an event horse by an Irish stallion:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/mossleigh+vali

Sorry, I just realized that this thread is meant to be about Secretariat bloodlines. My last post qualified, but this one doesn't.. hope that's okay!

[vineyridge]

He isn't one that I would have expected to excel in sport, but TBs have so many lines in common that a nice sport horse could pop up from anywhere at any time. It's a fluke thing. He's a fashion bred, which means that he carries all the more "suspect" modern tb lines. But in the back part of the pedigree (including Pleasant Colony who is lovely, and most of the rest of the tail female line which is also lovely), there are some very proven horses for sport.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/im+indy+gold
Can anyone tell me if this gelding has "sporthorse" bloodlines? Of course I see lots of names that I know (as successful racehorses), but what does he look like bloodline wise for an event horse?
Here are photos:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...d=112942126725
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...d=112942126725
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...d=112942126725

[vineyridge]

As to the other two, the pedigrees do predict talent. Very nice they are, too.

In L'il Kings Thing, Admiral's Voyage is very nice to have so close. There are a couple of interesting crosses down in the depths. Ariel is a proven showjumping line, and the tail female descends from his dam Adana, who had a number of offspring who were GP show jumpers. Just about every line in the pedigree is well proven in sport. Native Charger's dam gives you a double to Heliopolis, who is the ggrandsire on the dam side of Jet Run. So the jump, and stamina, per his dosage index, ought to be there. Jet Action is a lovely line, as he is Blenheim grandson, as is Olympia, son of Heliopolis. Prince Chevalier is one of the Prince Rose sons (other two are Prince Bio and Princequillo), and Prince Chevalier was an extremely good sire for chasers in Europe.

War Relic needs no discussion. Cutlass is a son of Damascus out of a lovely mare line. This is one of the stongest lines in TBs, to Rough Shod and the Blandford daughter, Dalmary. It is the dam line of Thatch, sire of Prince Thatch, as well as Sadler's Wells. It's also the same 5-h FF as Royal Canopy, sire of Bonne Nuit.

So his pedigree is packed with lines that have produced nice horses for sport, even dressage through the Prince Thatch connection.

As to Mossleigh Vali, Nonoalco is probably my favorite Nearctic son for sport. He's been proved in chasing and, IIRC, in SFs. Definitely used in SFs.
The rest of the pedigree is as good as it gets. Absolutely sterling. I'd have definitely predicted the eventing and jumping quality, but really don't know enough about dressage to make a guess where that came from. I do know Ribot is supposed to have been a minus line for dressage.

As just one example of the quality in this pedigree, Sunny Boy was the sire of the French GP jumper and SF sire, Night and Day. The rest is just as nice.

Mossleigh Vali has the same dam line as Cutlass. It's Simon's Shoes, dam of Dalmary.

[graustarkian]

Seriously, and before the book, could we just have some short courses available... you know, weekend long gatherings in nice locations for groups of 6-10 people, with good wine and lots of equine intellect!

Say the word and I will buy a plane ticket!

Mmmmmm! YES YES YES! LOL

[Hopalong]

Wow, Vineyridge, you are amazing, thank you!! You really ought to have a masterclass or something, you obviously know TB bloodlines backwards and forwards!! I would love to have that kind of knowledge.

You are right on about my daughter's eventer, he is all of those things AND has a fabulous temperament. He was a terrible racehorse as a three year old though, good thing for us!!

Mossleigh Vali was unraced, the old guy who bred her has a farm nearby full of those old bloodlines. But he told me years ago when I bought her that there aren't really races in the states for them. He said they are more distance horses and turf horses. He was still sending a few to the track back in the early 90's, but after that he pretty much kept them home. I haven't talked to him in several years, but I think he kept breeding some of them, mostly to his remaining stallion, The Last Like: http://www.pedigreequery.com/the+last+like
His mares were mostly from his old stallion Sun Worship: http://www.pedigreequery.com/sun+worship2, who's mother Turkish Treasure I remember he was especially proud of. And also many of his mares were from Ribblesdale: http://www.pedigreequery.com/ribblesdale who's daughters I remember were a bit on the "hotter" side, but unbelievably beautiful movers. One of them, Dancedale: http://www.pedigreequery.com/dancedale I sold for him to a woman who had her approved by the KWPN, and she had many first premium babies who are now very successful in dressage.
I never bred Mossleigh Vali's first daughter, Vali's Charisma, http://www.pedigreequery.com/valis+charisma because she only grew to be 15.2, but also because she was busy as a riding horse. She's gorgeous and a beautiful mover, just in a small package. If her bloodlines are getting lost or something and they're worth saving, maybe she should be a mom after all, if its possible as a 14 year old maiden.

For that matter, my old breeder friend is REALLY old now... if you think it would be worthwhile to go see what he's still got in his pastures, maybe to rehome them to people who are interested in using these bloodlines. Unless they've changed, his kids and grandkids really arent very horsey, so I wouldn't be surprised if they are wondering what they should do with the horses at this point.

[grayarabpony]

Sunny Boy is the grandsire of Night and Day. Soleil Levant and Sif (also dam of Sicrambre, which Viney has already written about) were sire and dam of SB.

I thought this link was interesting regarding dressage and thoroughbred lines: http://www.trakehners-international....oChamps09.html

[ljshorses]

Ursula also has an Innkeeper son standing at her place now too.

His name is INNVERNESS and if his conformation doesnt strikingly resembly BIG RED; i'm not sure who does!!

He was bred for her by Hilltop when Innkeeper was standing there.

He is Oldenburg/ISR Certified and was/will be exhibited at the 2010 performance testing.

He is really lovely

Yes, I have seen him in person and he is just gorgeous!!!!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

For that matter, my old breeder friend is REALLY old now... if you think it would be worthwhile to go see what he's still got in his pastures, maybe to rehome them to people who are interested in using these bloodlines. Unless they've changed, his kids and grandkids really arent very horsey, so I wouldn't be surprised if they are wondering what they should do with the horses at this point.

Please let me know...although I really don't need another horse! Although there are several good chaser breeders around here who would probably pick them up too and I could pass on the information. Breeding TBs for point to point and for sport is still happening in the MD/PA/VA areas for sure. And those farms seem to often have the older bloodlines as they are not breeding to send to the sales so the trends are not as important to them.

[vineyridge]

If I had a TB breeder friend with horses who have those bloodlines, I would be visiting, picking his brain, and doing all I could to get his horses into situations where those wonderful old bloodlines could be preserved. 21st Century North American short sprint, dirt racing wouldn't value those lines as we would. There's not a pedigree that you posted that doesn't make me drool.

Dancedale's dam line is very special. Very special indeed to me. Countess Albie is a half to Banquet Bell, who is tripled in a mare that I own, and also in a gelding I have. Pet Bully is a line that was used for breeding TB event horses by a Georgia breeder for more than thirty years. He is out of Camelina, who on the damside is a granddaughter of Royal Canopy, sire of Bonne Nuit; and the tail female line is to Sunmelia, who is in Damascus.

The Last Like is a paradigm for what we have lost in TB breeding in NA. Anyone interested in breeding TBs for sport would be well advised to consider this stallion as a model pedigree.

In one of the pedigrees you posted there is a line to Black Devil, who was exported to France and heavily used in SF breeding. Vieux Manoir and Val de Loire are also frequently found in SFs.

We just can't let these horses vanish; their lines ought to be saved for the future of the Northern American TB. The racing industry doesn't value them, but should, if they could think beyond this year.

[vineyridge]

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10213154
Don't know if it's correct.

According to my old APR, Crimson Cherry's first four foals were all by Secretariat. One was an unnamed colt. One was a total track bust named Crimson Royale. The other colt was named Crimson Secret. Given that Crimson Secret hasn't made it onto the JC online database, I'd guess that was Quantum Leap. The JC doesn't have its complete database online, and since QL was a gelding, he'd be the most likely to have been omitted.

If the pedigree is correct, it's yet another reason to treasure Spy Song and Crimson Satan lines for sport.

Anybody know Quantum Leap's pedigree?

[Fred]

hopalong, I wish your old neighbour was my old neighbour too -

thanks for all the additional info, everyone, great reading.

I had a broodmare a number of years ago, who had been bred to Secretariat before I bought her. Her dam had produced a very decent racehorse by Secretariat, named Image of Greatness, so I imagine they were trying to duplicate that cross.

www.pedigreequery.com/image+of+greatness
my mare's name was By the Letter
www.pedigreequery.com/by+the+letter
but I don't remember the name of her Secretariat foal, who was a colt IIRC.

Sadly, I sold her, in foal to A Fine Romance and I think now she is no longer alive.

[grayarabpony]

Thanks viney. He was owned by Sagamore Farm, which was pretty run down when it changed hands in 2007.