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Colored TB's.....??Racing??

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  • Colored TB's.....??Racing??

    Hey guys-

    I know "1/2" the answer to my question but I thought this would be a good topic of general knowledge...Those colored TB breeders out there... and perhaps (way back when when the TB colors weren't known) Did colored TB horses hit the track?

    If so, what kind of track? (small leagues, big leagues)...what kind of purses...AKA... How seriously were they campaigned as track horses?

    I know Racey, and some sibling/offspring have ran on the track... I *think* pretty decently (Its been a long time since I kept up with my racing disctionary). I also know Colorwordl has gotten some very nice...sabino mares off the track also.

    I also think one of the all white sabinos raced also (if my memory serves me correctly).

    How was this looked at? did these horses race well? were they judged by their color?

    And nowadays...why aren't more colored horses out there on the tracks?( By colored i mean... LOUDer sabino and or dilutes etc)

    I understand the injury aspect...but this is likely in and discipline...

    I was just thinking the other day, what I would do if I turned on ESPN to look at racing and saw a blurb like " Palomino horse XX entered this year in the triple crown series".....
  • Original Poster

    #2
    Hey guys-

    I know "1/2" the answer to my question but I thought this would be a good topic of general knowledge...Those colored TB breeders out there... and perhaps (way back when when the TB colors weren't known) Did colored TB horses hit the track?

    If so, what kind of track? (small leagues, big leagues)...what kind of purses...AKA... How seriously were they campaigned as track horses?

    I know Racey, and some sibling/offspring have ran on the track... I *think* pretty decently (Its been a long time since I kept up with my racing disctionary). I also know Colorwordl has gotten some very nice...sabino mares off the track also.

    I also think one of the all white sabinos raced also (if my memory serves me correctly).

    How was this looked at? did these horses race well? were they judged by their color?

    And nowadays...why aren't more colored horses out there on the tracks?( By colored i mean... LOUDer sabino and or dilutes etc)

    I understand the injury aspect...but this is likely in and discipline...

    I was just thinking the other day, what I would do if I turned on ESPN to look at racing and saw a blurb like " Palomino horse XX entered this year in the triple crown series".....

    Comment


    • #3
      All of my colored mares have raced before becoming broodmares for me. I have an all white mare, several sabino, and one sabino and rabicano they all raced. My only one to not race is my mare Queen Debonair my palomino mare...not due to bloodlines on her dams side for sure. She is a Lucky Debonair decendent.

      There are no answers, only the search.
      Home to the stallions Zillionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
      http://www.norsire.com
      Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club
      http://www.bridgetperry.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Not sure but I don't think Racey actually ran- after the freak death of Trichrome (overo stallion) she wanted to make sure he would be able to reproduce. I could be wrong and he ran a few times. I do know she ran Ellusive Quest some but I doubt he will return to the track with RR death.

        As for my own herd- I have two sabino mares (not near as loud as most on Nancy's site- typical 4 white socks really high, disconnected white etc) that both raced- one won a couple of races. My stallion is a sabino but he will not race.

        I think it is a dream of Nancy's to actually see a horse that looks like RR in some of the really big races.

        I think Naevus ran and he had a big white patch- not sure how successful he was.

        Comment


        • #5
          Amy she had a bunch more due in Jan. but no new foals have been posted..has she had anymore foals this year?

          There are no answers, only the search.
          Home to the stallions Zillionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
          http://www.norsire.com
          Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club
          http://www.bridgetperry.com

          Comment


          • #6
            I remember reading in Horse Illustrated (?) about a cremello or albino mare on the track.Her name and breeding escapes me at the moment though .
            Sara.

            No hugging dear.
            I'm British. We only show affection to dogs and horses.


            www.BluVenture.com
            No hugging dear. I'm British, we only show affection to dogs and horses.

            Comment


            • #7
              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASplashOfChampagne03:

              How was this looked at? did these horses race well? were they judged by their color?

              And nowadays...why aren't more colored horses out there on the tracks?( By colored i mean... LOUDer sabino and or dilutes etc)
              .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              There are actually plenty out there with high whites/belly spots. I've not seen a dilute, but I've seen chestnuts that are completely flaxen that will likely now be registered as palamino if the new rules are to be followed.

              Racehorses absolutely are not judged for their color and there aren't more out there because we in racing don't breed for color, couldn't give a hoot what color a horse is, we breed for what counts - performance.

              Two Toofs
              (formerly - but still - NDANO)

              Comment


              • #8
                Sato, Spot Pocket and Puchi Trap all raced, so did Special Lady. As did Puchilingui.
                You also have Marquetry, all of the Explodent and Halo bred horses that raced (and most of them were colored), Contrary Rose (who was WILDLY colored!), Naevus, etc, etc

                The fellow that owned Puchi Trap before I bought her said there was SO much interest in the paddock area when she was tacked up in the post parade, and she usually went off as the betting favorite in each race, I guess because all of the old dears with their $2.00 bets put it on her because she was so pretty and so different looking!

                "Spot"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Two Hoofs wrote:
                  There are actually plenty out there with high whites/belly spots. I've not seen a dilute, but I've seen chestnuts that are completely flaxen that will likely now be registered as palamino if the new rules are to be followed.
                  *************************************

                  If the new rules are to be followed then NO flaxen chestnut will be registered as Palomino as those that have chestnut papers but want to have Palomino in their papers have to send in hair examples to UC Davis and to proof that their horse is truly a diluted chestnut one and not just flaxen.

                  Gwendolyn
                  http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
                  Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

                  ***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***
                  Gwendolyn
                  http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.com
                  Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabians

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aurum:

                    If the new rules are to be followed then NO flaxen chestnut will be registered as Palomino as those that have chestnut papers but want to have Palomino in their papers have to send in hair examples to UC Davis and to proof that their horse is truly a diluted chestnut one and not just flaxen.

                    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    If the color descriptions are to be followed, they will indeed end up being registered as palomino in some cases (if they are lighter colored chestnuts. )



                    Chestnut: The entire coat of the horse may vary from a red-yellow to a golden-yellow. The mane, tail and legs are usually variations of the coat color, unless white markings are present.

                    Palomino: The entire coat of the horse is golden-yellow, unless white markings are present. The mane and tail are usually flaxen.



                    What you all are forgetting is that with the JC, the "color" is a literal coat description, not "genetic" color, no matter how badly you'd like it to be otherwise. And as a registry that serves the racing industry, we need it to stay that way. We need to be able to ID the horse in the paddock based on a several things, one of them being a description of their coat color. We do not care about what the genetic color of the horse is, nor should we. The only time genetics & color come into play with the JC is if parentage is uncertain, and even when they do they don't effect the registration color.

                    There's a little chestnut filly with almost pure "white" flaxen mane & tail across the shedrow from us right now that matches the coat description of palomino perfectly. If she had been registered after the additional coat description was added, she'd have had to be registered as palomino to be registered with an accurate coat description, even though she is without a doubt a genetic chestnut.

                    And I can guarantee you that no one in racing is going to be going through the trouble of getting genetic testing done to see what color their racehorse is - we really just don't care!

                    Be careful what you ask for, sometimes you might get it.

                    Two Toofs
                    (formerly - but still - NDANO)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Norsire- her next expected foal is by She's Got a Look due on 2-10.... so any day now! I am hoping for her sake she has a GREAT year. Lots of color, healthy foals and no problems!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Impromptu, are you thinking of Patchen Beauty?

                        Racing photo of Patchen Beauty

                        Friendship is Love without his wings
                        -Lord Byron
                        "If you would have only one day to live, you should spend at least half of it in the saddle."

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Hey guys- thanks for responding!

                          Sorry if my Info on RR was incorrect. I vaguely remembered seeing pictures up on the site of him with silks on and a jockey up, but now that Im thinkin(harder LOL) I think it was elusive that I saw in silks and a jockey up.

                          I also thought that patchen beauty had raced (this is Norsire's mare correct?) and didn't BW or a relative (max sabino) race too? I remember it was a colt that I saw coming out of the starting gate.

                          TwoToofs- Sorry if it seemed "not thought out" my remark about..."how it was looked upon etc".

                          I know that racing is racing and its the blood/conformation that is key, never the color. I just thought it would be interesting to look up any color racers etc. and that it would be interesting to see one race...no matter if color matters or not, like spot said... there's the ladies in the crowd that will bet on the "pretty pony" LOL so I guess there IS a "out" for the colored horses! they get more bets maybe

                          Also- Perhaps another thread ALL together...

                          Are the genetics of how to create another Bright White or Patchen beauty up to date? so to speak... is there a way to breed for a max sabino yet?

                          Representing RobbyJ and Missy "Misdemeanor" Elliot: NOTE: This is not reflecting my views! I just about spit out my soda when Robby posted this! (hence why its in the sig line)

                          "When I walk up in the piece, I ain't even gotta speak, I'm a bad muthaf&C#a, godd&&m^t you ain't gotta like me."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Starting with a max white helps but the all whites are still a pretty rare thing (even from the white parents)and it is not always that way. One yearling near white colt is by Airdie o/o a black bay mare w/ chrome but she not really sabino looking. Being a Prince Stanley dtr. is highly likely a sabino carrier though. My white mare is o/o a white mare, but her 2 foals to date herself are a 50% white sabino and a minimal sabino (4 stockings to knees and wide blaze). She is being bred to Wild By Design. Since his sire is a near white it wil be interesting to see what pops up!

                            Providence Farm
                            Providence Farm
                            http://providencefarmpintos.blogspot.com/

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              CaMohn-

                              Thanks for some info.

                              Do you have al all white(max sabino) mare or did you just mean your sabino mare (meaning white markings)

                              Representing RobbyJ and Missy "Misdemeanor" Elliot: NOTE: This is not reflecting my views! I just about spit out my soda when Robby posted this! (hence why its in the sig line)

                              "When I walk up in the piece, I ain't even gotta speak, I'm a bad muthaf&C#a, godd&&m^t you ain't gotta like me."

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Two Hoofs,
                                any JC horse that claims to be a Palomino will have to send in parentage AND dilution genetic DNA, so there will no chestnut get Palomino papers and no Palomino any more chestnut papers. That was my point. What people then SAY might be different than in the papers but the papers will be correct. For the papers there will have to be proof of the dilution via DNA test.

                                Gwendolyn
                                http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
                                Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

                                ***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***
                                Gwendolyn
                                http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.com
                                Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabians

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aurum:
                                  Two Hoofs,
                                  any JC horse that claims to be a Palomino will have to send in parentage AND dilution genetic DNA, so there will no chestnut get Palomino papers and no Palomino any more chestnut papers. That was my point. What people then SAY might be different than in the papers but the papers will be correct. For the papers there will have to be proof of the dilution via DNA test.

                                  Gwendolyn
                                  http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
                                  Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

                                  ***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Could you point this rule out to me in the rule book? Because I sure don't see it, not the in US JC rules anyway. There is absolutely no way that the US racing industry is going to tolerate having to pay for additional tests to find out what genetic color a horse is.

                                  BTW, there is no way a literal description of a coat color is a "Wrong" way to register a horse. It's just different than the way some other registries do it, and there is a reason for it. I don't see how that is so hard to understand - the JC does not care what genetic color a horse is, nor should they. They need only an accurate literal description of a horse on it's registration papers.

                                  Two Toofs
                                  (formerly - but still - NDANO)

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Two Hoofs,

                                    I am sorry to contradict you, but the International Convention has just recently decided that they will have Palomino as color description. I know it first hand as I was the one involved in that together with the German JC. The American JC had to agree on it too after all other JCs had voted for it. The new rules will come out in written very soon. The hairs of my mare has been sent as example to UC Davis and they came back with the fact that it is indeed a diluted chestnut horse, speak a Palomino. So now they set up the rules to be sure to have a Palomino in color instead of chestnut. The correct definition is WANTED by the European JCs and not only racing ability is important any more as correct identification is very important too. I only know that because I am involved in the whole matter so just believe me, it will soon be in print out for the others to see.

                                    Gwendolyn
                                    http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
                                    Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

                                    ***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***
                                    Gwendolyn
                                    http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.com
                                    Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabians

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Norsire does not own Patchen Beauty.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aurum:
                                        Two Hoofs,

                                        I am sorry to contradict you, but the International Convention has just recently decided that they will have Palomino as color description. I know it first hand as I was the one involved in that together with the German JC. The American JC had to agree on it too after all other JCs had voted for it. The new rules will come out in written very soon. The hairs of my mare has been sent as example to UC Davis and they came back with the fact that it is indeed a diluted chestnut horse, speak a Palomino. So now they set up the rules to be sure to have a Palomino in color instead of chestnut. The correct definition is WANTED by the European JCs and not only racing ability is important any more as correct identification is very important too. I only know that because I am involved in the whole matter so just believe me, it will soon be in print out for the others to see.

                                        Gwendolyn
                                        http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
                                        Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

                                        ***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        Don't be sorry, but the definition is already in the US JC rulebook and there are no color genetic testing rules.

                                        And, like I said, there is absolutely NO WAY that the US racing community is going to stand for having to PAY to do genetic testing on the color of their horses as a requirement for registry. Be certain of that.

                                        And BTW, if you register your horses according to the JC coat descriptions here in the US, it is a correctly registered horse. And I fail to see what the coat color description has to do with racing or other ability in any horse. Coat descriptions do not effect the value or function of the few people who breed TBs for their color rather than for their performance, so why the heck should we have to pay extra to register our horses just because a few select individuals have their panties in a wad over how coats are described in the registry?


                                        Edited to add: And what about the other variations on the chestnut coat color? Why not separate categories for "Sorrel" or "liver chestnut"? Why are you not concerned about those? And while we're at it, perhaps we should add "Sabino" & "Tobiano", etc., to the JC descriptions as well like the APHA does?

                                        Two Toofs
                                        (formerly - but still - NDANO)

                                        Comment

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