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Help! at wit's end with maiden mare

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  • Help! at wit's end with maiden mare

    I realize this is a common thread but maybe someone has a new idea. Kathy? My 8 year old mare is a maiden. We checked her initially and she had a 4.2 cm follicle. Rush to call the stallion owner of course it was a holiday weekend and no collection but frozen was available. Get the semen by Fedex and inseminate she grows the follicle to a 6.3cm. Several inseminations. No pregnancy. Next cycle same situation but we use the frozen because we have plenty on hand from the last time. No pregnancy.

    Third time perfect timing, fresh semen, check ovulation, all is perfect, a little fluid after 24 hours give oxytocin no pregnancy. Still ready to try one more time. Great stallion owner! So we are planning to flush 4 hours post insemination, give oxytocin. what's the all night thing? What else should I do? A friend mentioned a manose flush? She may still have a little bit of hymen clinging is that an issue? Any suggestions welcome.

    Erica

    PS I really want this foal. She's my favorite horse ever and I love the stallion. She's Absatz/Furioso/rosenkavalier/Ibikus and the stallion is Soprano. Sandro Hilt/Contender. By the way the semen is superb. Her Mom took on one dose of frozen!!!
    Erica H. Max
    Fire Hjorner Farm
    Breeders and Importers of Danish Warmbloods

    www.danishwarmblood.com

  • #2
    I'm a little unclear, but were you initially breeding with frozen? If so, I would strongly reccomend breeding post-ovulation (within 6 hours or less) using a single dose. You could also used the timed insemination protocol. The more times you breed, the more inflammation you cause, so I would be carefully dumping multiple doses of semen into the mare/per cycle.
    However, if you have not already done so I would strongly reccomend doing a culture and cytology at this point, before breeding again.
    Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      We were initially breeding with frozen because there wasn't time to collect and the stallion owner had frozen on hand. We haven't done a cytology nor culture because she's a maiden and didn't expect problems. There's not really time for one so if she doesn't take on this coming cycle I'll give up for the year and do tests and start early next year.

      Thanks for your thoughts
      Erica
      Erica H. Max
      Fire Hjorner Farm
      Breeders and Importers of Danish Warmbloods

      www.danishwarmblood.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by danskbreeder View Post
        We were initially breeding with frozen because there wasn't time to collect and the stallion owner had frozen on hand. We haven't done a cytology nor culture because she's a maiden and didn't expect problems. There's not really time for one so if she doesn't take on this coming cycle I'll give up for the year and do tests and start early next year.

        Thanks for your thoughts
        Erica
        I know that many people don't culture maidens and get along fine with that. However I can tell you that in my experience it is not at all uncommon for maiden mares to have an infection. Not only that but I've seen plenty of maiden mares with poor biopsy scores, as well.
        You can certainly wait until next year, but if there is an infection, the longer it is left untreated the more potential damage there is to the uterus. If you are dealing with an infection, breeding again without addressing that infection is simply throwing good money after bad.

        Best of luck and I hope it works out for you this time!
        Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
        https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227

        Comment


        • #5
          I second what Hillside said...I've been there with an infected 3yo maiden.

          If you end up finding an infection now, you can get it cleaned up and the mare caslicked for a fresh (so to speak) start next spring.

          My only other suggestion is to begin giving microdoses of oxytocin every 6 hours beginning 6 hours post breeding. It's worth the lost sleep if she has a tendency to pool. Better to get ahead of it, than to treat it once she does have fluid.
          "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            The problem is she'll probably be breed able on Saturday. That doesn't give us much time to do a culture or cytology. I think the problem has been one of inflammation. I am not planning to wait until next year to check for infection but it's a timing issue now with winter fast approaching. My mares tend to cycle until the days get really short but I'm not sure I want to be foaling next fall and have a young foal in the snow.

            Thanks so much.
            Erica
            Erica H. Max
            Fire Hjorner Farm
            Breeders and Importers of Danish Warmbloods

            www.danishwarmblood.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by danskbreeder View Post
              So we are planning to flush 4 hours post insemination, give oxytocin. what's the all night thing? What else should I do? A friend mentioned a manose flush? She may still have a little bit of hymen clinging is that an issue? Any suggestions welcome.
              Culture and cytology? Hymen shouldn't interfere as it's located (or it "should" be located" at the distal end of the vaginal vault. But, if it's occluding the vagina, you "do" want to make sure it's removed so that it doesn't "redirect" the foal's feet in the wrong direction during birth.

              Probably the biggest thing is to check to see if you have any pathogenic growth. What if any diagnostics have been done?

              Fluid can be an issue and oxytocin will definitely be beneficial for that. 10 IU oxytocin every six hours prior to ovulation. After ovulation, 20 IU every six hours up to three days post ovulation.

              Hope that helps!
              Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
              Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by danskbreeder View Post
                We haven't done a cytology nor culture because she's a maiden and didn't expect problems. There's not really time for one so if she doesn't take on this coming cycle I'll give up for the year and do tests and start early next year.

                Thanks for your thoughts
                Erica
                Common mistake and an expensive one. Just because a mare is maiden, does NOT mean that she won't have a positive culture and cytology. At the very least, when breeding a mare, regardless of her previous breeding/foaling status (unless she has recently foaled) do a cytology! It's cheap. It's easy. And it can let you know if you have a problem and at that point, you can proceed with other diagnostics.

                A culture will usually show some growth at 24 hours and by 48 hours, you'll know if you have a real problem. I'm surprised that your vet hasn't done one already considering how many attempts have been made to breed the mare.

                Good luck!
                Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
                Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  We haven't done any diagnostics yet. Mostly due to timing. I was too cavalier about breeding this year and only decided late June to do it. After The first two cycles we thought that maybe it was an issue with frozen semen sensitivity. But our timing was perfect with the fresh and it's great semen. What do you guys think about using a mannose flush 4 hours post breeding? Along with oxytocin every six hours? Horse breeders don't need sleep anyway.

                  Thanks everyone
                  Erica
                  Erica H. Max
                  Fire Hjorner Farm
                  Breeders and Importers of Danish Warmbloods

                  www.danishwarmblood.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My vet was able to do a cytology on the spot and was able to tell me with some certainty that no infection was present (I think he looked for neutrophils?). We bred my mare 10 minutes later.

                    My vet cited a study that found cytology only was as if not more effective than culture and cytology. It blew me away; I'd never heard this theory. I guess the idea is that cultures are so frequently contaminated and cytologies show whether there are (white?) blood cells fighting an infection.

                    I insisted we send the culture out anyway, but a cytology in the field would be better than nothing in your case and you could send out the culture even if you decide to go ahead with the Sunday breeding.
                    Kendra -- Runningwater Warmbloods
                    Home of EM Raleska (Rascalino/ Warkant) and Donatella M (Furstenball/ Jazz Time)
                    'Like' us on Facebook

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                    • #11
                      You have plenty of time to do a cytology; it is not a send out test, as long as your vet is proficient at it.
                      At our clinic you would have time for a culture, as we do them in house. You could culture today and you would know if there were growth by Friday, at the latest. Depending upon how your clinic does the sensitivity you might have just enough time. You can breed and treat on the same cycle; that is done all the time.
                      I personally wouldn't reccomend a mannose flush, or really dumping anything else into the uterus until you know what you are dealing with. The wrong treatment can actually make an infection (especially if it is a fungus) much, much worse.
                      Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
                      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ditto on this!!!

                        Originally posted by Hillside H Ranch View Post
                        I personally wouldn't reccomend a mannose flush, or really dumping anything else into the uterus until you know what you are dealing with. The wrong treatment can actually make an infection (especially if it is a fungus) much, much worse.
                        Be aware that every time you go into the uterus, you run the chance of introducing something you don't want in there! So, if there is nothing wrong, don't take that chance! Figure out what's going on and go from there. Good luck!
                        Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
                        Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

                        Comment

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