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Need input from genetics experts...especially Dominant White #5 knowledgeables

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  • Need input from genetics experts...especially Dominant White #5 knowledgeables

    We have an outstanding 19 month old homebred colt that we are planning on retaining as a stallion prospect. His sire is our homozygous black and tobiano, APHA stallion...his dam is a loud, bay/white, Dominant White #5 (overo looking)mare by our, now deceased stallion, Puchi's Rambo by Puchilingui. The colt is justifiably stallion quality in mind, body, movement and gentle temperament....APHA registry...and we only breed our own mares so please...no bashing. My question is: He is obviously tobiano ...due to his homozygous father....but could he still carry...pass on the Dominant White #5 when bred to non-tobiano mares?? Or does tobiano trump, overo/Dominant White #5?? Thanks.

  • crosscreeksh
    replied
    Originally posted by allanglos View Post
    I have a W5 stallion. Dam was by Puchilingui. The color can get interesting. Congrats on your W5.

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    Stunning horse!!
    This was our "last" Puchi's Rambo stallion/son. Ok. feed company killed him...we have ONE, 3/4 TB, ISH,
    daughter of his, a fantastic, "colored" gelding and a full TB sister....dam of the tobiano/?DW colt n question.
    Attached Files

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  • allanglos
    replied
    I have a W5 stallion. Dam was by Puchilingui. The color can get interesting. Congrats on your W5.

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  • skydy
    replied
    OP are you not understanding what JB is saying?

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  • crosscreeksh
    replied
    Especially since she would be in her late 20's if she wasn't DEAD! She had 7 foals by Puchi's Rambo.....7 were loud, dominant white #5's. All of our broodmares are decendants of these pure TB pairings.

    Leave a comment:


  • JB
    replied
    Yes, I know the stallion side is all TB/QH/APHA, which means Frame is possible, and he needs to be tested.

    "Solid black mare" means nothing in terms of Frame. There are many solid horses who carry Frame. Given how few Frame lines there are in the TB world, the chances of that black TB mare carrying frame is slim to none.

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  • crosscreeksh
    replied
    Originally posted by JB View Post

    The 5 panel test is for HERDA, HYPP, PSSM, GBED, and MH.

    It does not include LWO. So, he really should be tested.

    I saw nothing about his sire that said he was tested, but if you have proof he was tested n/n, then this colt is also n/n by pedigree, as long as the TB dam is not from one of the Frame lines. I know her sire line is not, but I don't know what her mare line is.
    The stallion side is ALL TB, QH and APHA... Homozygous tobiano. The mare is by Puchi's Rambo....no LW ....out of a solid black TB mare.

    Leave a comment:


  • JB
    replied
    Originally posted by crosscreeksh View Post
    This stallion has been genetically tested negative for 5 genetic traits.
    The 5 panel test is for HERDA, HYPP, PSSM, GBED, and MH.

    It does not include LWO. So, he really should be tested.

    I saw nothing about his sire that said he was tested, but if you have proof he was tested n/n, then this colt is also n/n by pedigree, as long as the TB dam is not from one of the Frame lines. I know her sire line is not, but I don't know what her mare line is.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scribbler
    replied
    Yes I understand Frame Overo mutated in North America in horses of Spanish descent. So frame Overo is historically present in Mustangs, QH, Paints, and other breeds as well. I've seen classic frame Overo miniature horses, one at our barn was a mini me of my big Paint mare.

    But with horse transport and AI growing over the past 60 or 70 years I am sure frame Overo horses must have been imported to Europe, especially if there are pockets of riders that admire the Western horse.

    Like for instance Germany.



    https://www.vf-performancehorses.com/english/horses/

    The German Paint Horse Club lists several Frame Overo stallions at stud. They are all obvious American lineage horses but they are at stud in Germany so the Frame Overo gene will be in the home grown population now.


    http://www.phcg.de/zucht/hengste-anzeigen​

    Leave a comment:


  • skydy
    replied
    Originally posted by crosscreeksh View Post
    APHA (Paint) registry - American Paint Horse Assoc.
    I understand his registry but what is his breeding? Apparently it can be QH TB or some combination of the two.

    Leave a comment:


  • crosscreeksh
    replied
    APHA (Paint) registry - American Paint Horse Assoc.

    Leave a comment:


  • skydy
    replied
    North American is what I understand NA to refer to.

    The sire of you stallion prospect is a QH or Appendix?

    Leave a comment:


  • crosscreeksh
    replied
    Originally posted by skydy View Post

    OP's horse is NA bred.
    You lost me...what is NA bred? This stallion has been genetically tested negative for 5 genetic traits.

    Leave a comment:


  • crosscreeksh
    replied
    Originally posted by skydy View Post
    Which breed is your APHA Stallion, the sire of your colt?

    So JB is correct in saying that APHA breeding stock need to be tested for OLWS to be sure.

    Now, if only they would come up with more info on DSLD...
    Boogie is a tobiano APHA registered stallion....Mostly APHA, but with some QH and 1/8 TB ...here's his pedigree:
    https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/twist+n+boogie

    Leave a comment:


  • skydy
    replied
    Originally posted by jvanrens View Post

    APHA, AQHA and TBs of certain lines should be tested for OLWS (frame). Frame isn't always obvious, there are horses with no visible white that test positive. It's also found in minis and likely other breeds that I'm drawing a blank on. It is known as a new world mutation, so if your horse has no NA bloodlines you should be safe.
    OP's horse is NA bred.

    Leave a comment:


  • jvanrens
    replied
    Originally posted by skydy View Post
    Which breed is your APHA Stallion, the sire of your colt?

    So JB is correct in saying that APHA breeding stock need to be tested for OLWS to be sure.

    Now, if only they would come up with more info on DSLD...
    APHA, AQHA and TBs of certain lines should be tested for OLWS (frame). Frame isn't always obvious, there are horses with no visible white that test positive. It's also found in minis and likely other breeds that I'm drawing a blank on. It is known as a new world mutation, so if your horse has no NA bloodlines you should be safe.

    Leave a comment:


  • skydy
    replied
    Originally posted by Scribbler View Post


    I guess my point is you need to test the horses that don't look obvious frame Overos if you don't know their lineage. But you don't need to test frame Overos because you know they carry it.
    Quite right. JB explained the need for testing, even if the horse doesn't show frame characteristics. OP's horse doesn't show them, but needs testing to be safe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scribbler
    replied
    Originally posted by skydy View Post
    Which breed is your APHA Stallion, the sire of your colt?

    So JB is correct in saying that APHA breeding stock need to be tested for OLWS to be sure.

    Now, if only they would come up with more info on DSLD...
    If you have an obvious frame Overo you don't need to test. Because that horse is guaranteed to be a lethal white carrier.

    A frame Overo can however be a solid color horse with maybe socks and a blaze. It can also be greyed out as an adult so you don't see the spots.

    I think it also gets tricky when you have a Tovero that looks a lot like a straight Tobiano.

    I ended up on a Wikipedia listing of the 25 or so different White genes variations some of which were mutations in just one bloodline or even horse. They mostly looked like variation on sabinos. But then some frame Overos come out a bit speckly too.

    I guess my point is you need to test the horses that don't look obvious frame Overos if you don't know their lineage. But you don't need to test frame Overos because you know they carry it.

    Leave a comment:


  • skydy
    replied
    Which breed is your APHA Stallion, the sire of your colt?

    So JB is correct in saying that APHA breeding stock need to be tested for OLWS to be sure.

    Now, if only they would come up with more info on DSLD...
    Last edited by skydy; Oct. 31, 2019, 06:03 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • JB
    replied
    Originally posted by crosscreeksh View Post

    When we were looking for our first "painted" stallion...I spoke to several overo breeders who "regularly" bred LW mares and stallions knowing they had a 50% chance of lethal white foals....I was told it was "a chance they were willing to take" GASP!!! Why take the chance of a "destined to die" baby after 11 months of waiting??? Poor babies are doomed from conception!!
    I will never understand that mentality. Some even think they get a greater chance at a colored foal by breeding n/O x n/O. They don't. That's not how it works. They have just as much chance of a LIVE Frame foal by breeding no x nO. What is never guaranteed is the presentation of color. He might be totally solid.

    It's actually 25% chance of a dead foal - 25% chance of OO, 25% chance of nn (no carrier, no pattern), and a 50% chance of a Frame carrier (who might or might not have white).

    With nn x nO, it's still 50% chance of a Frame carrier who might or might not have white), 50% chance of a nn (no carrier), and zero % chance of a dead foal. Those assholes are willing to trade a nn foal for a dead one.

    Originally posted by skydy View Post
    APHA; is that the registry that has Quarter Horse lines (Paint) or is it a Pinto registry?
    Pinto is just a pattern registry, which accepts a variety of breeds. APHA is QH, APHA, and TB.

    Leave a comment:

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