Sport Horse Spotlight

Fasino-12-16-07-175

Real Estate Spotlight

JR-1

Sale Spotlight

  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Need input from genetics experts...especially Dominant White #5 knowledgeables

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Need input from genetics experts...especially Dominant White #5 knowledgeables

    We have an outstanding 19 month old homebred colt that we are planning on retaining as a stallion prospect. His sire is our homozygous black and tobiano, APHA stallion...his dam is a loud, bay/white, Dominant White #5 (overo looking)mare by our, now deceased stallion, Puchi's Rambo by Puchilingui. The colt is justifiably stallion quality in mind, body, movement and gentle temperament....APHA registry...and we only breed our own mares so please...no bashing. My question is: He is obviously tobiano ...due to his homozygous father....but could he still carry...pass on the Dominant White #5 when bred to non-tobiano mares?? Or does tobiano trump, overo/Dominant White #5?? Thanks.
    www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
    Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

  • #2
    You have time, since he is only rising two, and it will be awhile until you know if he should be used as a stallion. You'll know more about his usefulness once he matures and you see how he accepts training, and goes under saddle for whatever discipline you have in mind for him and for his potential get.

    Are you concerned about OLWS? Are you thinking to breed him to Overo mares? If so, I would contact U.C.Davis and have him tested. It isn't expensive and if this is indeed why you are concerned, a test will give you a definitive answer and peace of mind. I would expect that you are familiar with testing , if you breed Overo horses. Just test him if he turns out to be stallion material.

    I wouldn't take a chance on internet advice when there is an easy and relatively inexpensive test that can prevent you from a breeding that results in an avoidable foal mortality.

    How fun to have a really nice homebred! Photos?
    Last edited by skydy; Oct. 31, 2019, 05:19 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by crosscreeksh View Post
      My question is: He is obviously tobiano ...due to his homozygous father....but could he still carry...pass on the Dominant White #5 when bred to non-tobiano mares?? Or does tobiano trump, overo/Dominant White #5?? Thanks.
      To and any W can exist in the same horse, because they are different manifestations of the KIT gene. One doesn't cancel out the other genetically, but could in phenotype. W5 would be very unlikely to mask the visibility of Tobiano though.

      But it also means a horse can't be homozygous for more than 1 KIT mutation. ToTo can't also be Roan, or any W, or SB1, for example, they can only have 2.

      However, he's only going to pass one or the other, he can't pass both.

      The "when bred to non-Tobiano mares" is irrelevant in this context, as the mare has nothing to do with what the stallion passes. He's going to pass To or W5. Whatever else she has will make up the other half.

      Originally posted by skydy View Post
      Are you concerned about OLWS? Are you thinking to breed him to Overo mares? If so, I would contact U.C.Davis and have him tested. It isn't expensive and if this is indeed why you are concerned, a test will give you a definitive answer and peace of mind. I would expect that you are familiar with testing , if you breed Overo horses. Just test him if he turns out to be stallion material.
      "overo-looking" is a common phenotype of some White patterns, especially W5. I'm pretty certain Crosscreek knows about Frame, but it's a good reminder anyway

      I wouldn't take a chance on internet advice when there is an easy and relatively inexpensive test that can prevent you from a breeding that results in an avoidable foal mortality.
      She wasn't asking about Frame though She's just asking if a horse can be Tobiano and W5 at the same time (they can), and if they can pass both (they can).

      ______________________________
      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

      Comment


      • #4
        I've certainly seen horses that are tovero or tobiano plus splash (paint Clydesdale cross) who look quite a bit like tobiano but the patterns are different.

        If you want to know what his genes are you should test him. Then it's I think a roll of the dice what he passes on and also how it is expressed in the foal.

        ​​​​​​

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Thanks to all...JB...you are the one who "informed" us that our painted TB's (Puchi's Rambo) were Dominant White #5 gene....after years of calling him and his produce "overos"!!! We are out of DW # stallions...lost Rambo to an odd pasture incident when he slid into the root of the ONLY tree in his 5 acre paddock...and we lost Jagged Illusion when an Oklahoma feed mill changed their feed to 20% corn gluten....Jag died a horrible death of Sulfuric acid poisoning. We are not going back to breeding "painted" pure TB's...just outstanding Pinto and Paint sport horses with a lot of TB blood and puppy dog dispositions!!

          I don't think I can post pictures on COTH...my photos were "always the wrong size" for posting here. This isn't an ad of any sort...so I guess I can give my FB "farm page" address without an issue!! "JBSporthorses" (Ok.) Lots of pretty pictures there.

          Skydy....The Dominant White #5 horses do not carry the Lethal White gene. This colt definitely will be stallion quality....he's about 16.1+ at 19 months. Excellent conformation, movement.... and the disposition of a Beagle puppy!! Sire is a World Champion APHA producer....English type....not a peanut roller! We don't usually register with APHA since our type of horses aren't peanut roller/APHA type.

          Thanks JB....I thought TO was dominant over the "overo" type gene. He is clearly a tobiano...but has some DW roaning in some of his spots. Sire is HZ tobiano and black.
          www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
          Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by crosscreeksh View Post
            Thanks to all...JB...you are the one who "informed" us that our painted TB's (Puchi's Rambo) were Dominant White #5 gene....after years of calling him and his produce "overos"!!! We are out of DW # stallions...lost Rambo to an odd pasture incident when he slid into the root of the ONLY tree in his 5 acre paddock...and we lost Jagged Illusion when an Oklahoma feed mill changed their feed to 20% corn gluten....Jag died a horrible death of Sulfuric acid poisoning. We are not going back to breeding "painted" pure TB's...just outstanding Pinto and Paint sport horses with a lot of TB blood and puppy dog dispositions!!

            I don't think I can post pictures on COTH...my photos were "always the wrong size" for posting here. This isn't an ad of any sort...so I guess I can give my FB "farm page" address without an issue!! "JBSporthorses" (Ok.) Lots of pretty pictures there.

            Skydy....The Dominant White #5 horses do not carry the Lethal White gene. This colt definitely will be stallion quality....he's about 16.1+ at 19 months. Excellent conformation, movement.... and the disposition of a Beagle puppy!! Sire is a World Champion APHA producer....English type....not a peanut roller! We don't usually register with APHA since our type of horses aren't peanut roller/APHA type.

            Thanks JB....I thought TO was dominant over the "overo" type gene. He is clearly a tobiano...but has some DW roaning in some of his spots. Sire is HZ tobiano and black.
            Is there a typo in the farm name? I can find cross Creek sport horses with the old Oklahoma address and all your old stallions mentioned here but JB sport horses takes me to a jumper barn in California.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by Scribbler View Post

              Is there a typo in the farm name? I can find cross Creek sport horses with the old Oklahoma address and all your old stallions mentioned here but JB sport horses takes me to a jumper barn in California.
              We live in Texas now...I've never "redone" our CCSH web site, but maintain it for breeding references...still breeding the same lines and don't know how to do a new web...and my site designer split the country a few years ago and took ALL access codes and passwords...even the Web Host can't make changes. Our FB farm page is "JB Sporthorses" one word in error...but unique....and designate "Oklahoma". Moving again...I hope...so not worth finding someone to update everything!! Sorry for the confusion...I don't mention it here in case it gets misunderstood as advertising!!
              www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
              Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by crosscreeksh View Post
                Thanks to all...JB...you are the one who "informed" us that our painted TB's (Puchi's Rambo) were Dominant White #5 gene....after years of calling him and his produce "overos"!!!
                2 things:

                Technically, anything not Tobiano IS Overo Overo is "not-Tobiano" (and of course not appaloosa). So, you weren't wrong LOL

                Confusing issue is that the APHA and AQHA have totally muddied the waters with the interchangeable use of Frame and Overo. Frame is just one of the Overo patterns - splash, sabino. frame, white, all are overo patterns.

                We are out of DW # stallions...lost Rambo to an odd pasture incident when he slid into the root of the ONLY tree in his 5 acre paddock...and we lost Jagged Illusion when an Oklahoma feed mill changed their feed to 20% corn gluten....Jag died a horrible death of Sulfuric acid poisoning. We are not going back to breeding "painted" pure TB's...just outstanding Pinto and Paint sport horses with a lot of TB blood and puppy dog dispositions!!
                I remember all that, and I cried for you

                I don't think I can post pictures on COTH...my photos were "always the wrong size" for posting here. This isn't an ad of any sort...so I guess I can give my FB "farm page" address without an issue!! "JBSporthorses" (Ok.) Lots of pretty pictures there.
                FB page, for those who can't find it
                https://www.facebook.com/PaintedSporthorses/


                Skydy....The Dominant White #5 horses do not carry the Lethal White gene.
                Well, they COULD. Frame (lethal white overo) exists in the TB breed (to which W5 is exclusive). However, that's not your line of breeding to my knowledge, so not an issue for you. However, APHA horses do carry Frame, so hopefully your guy is tested negative (or if he's n/o, you make sure to breed to only n/n mares)

                Thanks JB....I thought TO was dominant over the "overo" type gene. He is clearly a tobiano...but has some DW roaning in some of his spots. Sire is HZ tobiano and black.
                I would test to be sure. Tobiano spots very often have roaning, either the whole spot, or around the edges. For W5 on top of Tobi, I would expect white markings with jagged edges, so looking like a Tobi in terms of "oh look, he's clearly tobiano", but with markings not congruent with the smooth edges of tobiano white. I wish I had an example but I don't.
                ______________________________
                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by JB View Post
                  2 things:

                  Technically, anything not Tobiano IS Overo Overo is "not-Tobiano" (and of course not appaloosa). So, you weren't wrong LOL

                  Confusing issue is that the APHA and AQHA have totally muddied the waters with the interchangeable use of Frame and Overo. Frame is just one of the Overo patterns - splash, sabino. frame, white, all are overo patterns.


                  I remember all that, and I cried for you

                  [qutoe]I don't think I can post pictures on COTH...my photos were "always the wrong size" for posting here. This isn't an ad of any sort...so I guess I can give my FB "farm page" address without an issue!! "JBSporthorses" (Ok.) Lots of pretty pictures there.
                  FB page, for those who can't find it
                  https://www.facebook.com/PaintedSporthorses/



                  Well, they COULD. Frame (lethal white overo) exists in the TB breed (to which W5 is exclusive). However, that's not your line of breeding to my knowledge, so not an issue for you. However, APHA horses do carry Frame, so hopefully your guy is tested negative (or if he's n/o, you make sure to breed to only n/n mares)



                  I would test to be sure. Tobiano spots very often have roaning, either the whole spot, or around the edges. For W5 on top of Tobi, I would expect white markings with jagged edges, so looking like a Tobi in terms of "oh look, he's clearly tobiano", but with markings not congruent with the smooth edges of tobiano white. I wish I had an example but I don't.[/QUOTE]

                  I know what you mean about the roany/spots...the colt has a couple of "clean spots" with roany centers...not smeared "overo like" spots.

                  We will have his sire until he dies of old age!!! He is positively awesome looking, homozygous and the KINDEST stallion we have owned since losing Rambo!! He lives with an old mare (dam of this colt)...has no malice for the geldings in the next pasture or donkeys that weedeat his fence posts!! I've never seen him flip an ear back in 5 years!!

                  If this youngster NEVER produces a spotted baby it wouldn't matter to us...he is an amazing colt!! I'm getting APHA papers on him because the paint people "might" want to breed to him for English horses with size....he looks like he'll go 17 hands at least. We only breed a mare or two per year...never breed in the foaling year...but still enjoy putting some phenomenal foals on the ground in our old age!! We plan to move back east....to Aiken, SC area...where our "kind" of horses will be more valued than out here in the west where ropers/reiners/barrel horses abound!! Visitors marvel that our 3 month old filly is the size of their yearlings!!
                  www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
                  Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Found the FB page, lovely horses. Somewhere along the line pintos seem to have chosen me so I've been looking at pinto patterns with interest my whole life. I'm really fascinated by the new genetic information that wasn't there when I was a kid and you had tobiano, Overo, Sabino and "albino" for maximum white.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Scribbler View Post
                      Found the FB page, lovely horses. Somewhere along the line pintos seem to have chosen me so I've been looking at pinto patterns with interest my whole life. I'm really fascinated by the new genetic information that wasn't there when I was a kid and you had tobiano, Overo, Sabino and "albino" for maximum white.
                      Thank you.

                      We LOVE our "flashy" horses/babies....but our emphasis had always been on good minds and dispositions!! Even when we were breeding racing TB's!! In our opinion...if you can't get along with them...they are not going to be good at the chosen task.

                      Our DW #5 stallion, Puchi's Rambo was almost a 100% color producer and was bred to ONLY solid colored mares....his son, Jagged Illusion only sired one foal (a LOUD 3/4 TB - ISH filly o/o a solid black ISH mare) in his short career before being poisoned by a crooked feed company (they were sued and paid $100,000....most of which went to lawyers, but they WERE found guilty!) All but one of our mares goes back to Rambo bloodlines. We bought Challenged (Unbridled's Song o/o Money Madam by AP Indy (LOUD sabino) to breed to our Rambo mares and didn't get a single spot out of 4 foals. Sold him to a race horse breeder and bought Twist N Boogie HZ tobiano and black....so now we are getting high quality PAINTED foals every time. I'm not ashamed to admit I really like flash/chrome/spots on a GREAT horse!!
                      www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
                      Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Scribbler View Post
                        Found the FB page, lovely horses. Somewhere along the line pintos seem to have chosen me so I've been looking at pinto patterns with interest my whole life. I'm really fascinated by the new genetic information that wasn't there when I was a kid and you had tobiano, Overo, Sabino and "albino" for maximum white.
                        It's wonderful how far testing has come. I never worked for breeders of pinto or paint horses, all I knew was Tobiano and Overo, and the old piebald and skewbald. I remember the lethal white horror though. There were some breeders in our riding club that had lethal white appear more than once.

                        It's great that it is now avoidable, just like SCID, LFS, and CA in Arabians and HYPP, HERDA etc in Quarter Horses.

                        So much heartbreak can now be avoided.

                        I should have mentioned that riding club was a long time ago. Right around the time that testing became available if I remember correctly. I think the Paint breeders didn't yet have access to testing or if they did, it was in its infancy.
                        Last edited by skydy; Oct. 31, 2019, 05:44 PM. Reason: ETA

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by skydy View Post

                          It's wonderful how far testing has come. I never worked for breeders of pinto or paint horses, all I knew was Tobiano and Overo, and the old piebald and skewbald. I remember the lethal white horror though. There were some breeders in our riding club that had lethal white appear more than once.

                          It's great that it is now avoidable, just like SCID, LFS, and CA in Arabians and HYPP, HERDA etc in Quarter Horses.

                          So much heartbreak can now be avoided.
                          When we were looking for our first "painted" stallion...I spoke to several overo breeders who "regularly" bred LW mares and stallions knowing they had a 50% chance of lethal white foals....I was told it was "a chance they were willing to take" GASP!!! Why take the chance of a "destined to die" baby after 11 months of waiting??? Poor babies are doomed from conception!!
                          www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
                          Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by crosscreeksh View Post

                            When we were looking for our first "painted" stallion...I spoke to several overo breeders who "regularly" bred LW mares and stallions knowing they had a 50% chance of lethal white foals....I was told it was "a chance they were willing to take" GASP!!! Why take the chance of a "destined to die" baby after 11 months of waiting??? Poor babies are doomed from conception!!
                            Yes, some people are irresponsible and have no business breeding horses. People apparently still take chances with other preventable genetic diseases as well, and some don't even test. No excuse for either.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              APHA; is that the registry that has Quarter Horse lines (Paint) or is it a Pinto registry?

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                APHA accepts QH, Paints and TB's only....But they accept crop outs from QH and TB's. There is a "solid/breeding stock" division for reg. paints that didn't get qualifying spots.
                                www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
                                Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by crosscreeksh View Post

                                  When we were looking for our first "painted" stallion...I spoke to several overo breeders who "regularly" bred LW mares and stallions knowing they had a 50% chance of lethal white foals....I was told it was "a chance they were willing to take" GASP!!! Why take the chance of a "destined to die" baby after 11 months of waiting??? Poor babies are doomed from conception!!
                                  I will never understand that mentality. Some even think they get a greater chance at a colored foal by breeding n/O x n/O. They don't. That's not how it works. They have just as much chance of a LIVE Frame foal by breeding no x nO. What is never guaranteed is the presentation of color. He might be totally solid.

                                  It's actually 25% chance of a dead foal - 25% chance of OO, 25% chance of nn (no carrier, no pattern), and a 50% chance of a Frame carrier (who might or might not have white).

                                  With nn x nO, it's still 50% chance of a Frame carrier who might or might not have white), 50% chance of a nn (no carrier), and zero % chance of a dead foal. Those assholes are willing to trade a nn foal for a dead one.

                                  Originally posted by skydy View Post
                                  APHA; is that the registry that has Quarter Horse lines (Paint) or is it a Pinto registry?
                                  Pinto is just a pattern registry, which accepts a variety of breeds. APHA is QH, APHA, and TB.
                                  ______________________________
                                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Which breed is your APHA Stallion, the sire of your colt?

                                    So JB is correct in saying that APHA breeding stock need to be tested for OLWS to be sure.

                                    Now, if only they would come up with more info on DSLD...
                                    Last edited by skydy; Oct. 31, 2019, 06:03 PM.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by skydy View Post
                                      Which breed is your APHA Stallion, the sire of your colt?

                                      So JB is correct in saying that APHA breeding stock need to be tested for OLWS to be sure.

                                      Now, if only they would come up with more info on DSLD...
                                      If you have an obvious frame Overo you don't need to test. Because that horse is guaranteed to be a lethal white carrier.

                                      A frame Overo can however be a solid color horse with maybe socks and a blaze. It can also be greyed out as an adult so you don't see the spots.

                                      I think it also gets tricky when you have a Tovero that looks a lot like a straight Tobiano.

                                      I ended up on a Wikipedia listing of the 25 or so different White genes variations some of which were mutations in just one bloodline or even horse. They mostly looked like variation on sabinos. But then some frame Overos come out a bit speckly too.

                                      I guess my point is you need to test the horses that don't look obvious frame Overos if you don't know their lineage. But you don't need to test frame Overos because you know they carry it.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Scribbler View Post


                                        I guess my point is you need to test the horses that don't look obvious frame Overos if you don't know their lineage. But you don't need to test frame Overos because you know they carry it.
                                        Quite right. JB explained the need for testing, even if the horse doesn't show frame characteristics. OP's horse doesn't show them, but needs testing to be safe.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X