Stallion Spotlight

Fasino-12-16-07-175

Real Estate Spotlight

1
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You�re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it�details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums� policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it�s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users� profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses � Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it�s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who�s selling it, it doesn�t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions � Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services � Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products � While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements � Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be �bumped� excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues � Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators� discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you�d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user�s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Warmblood Registries: is there a roadmap?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Warmblood Registries: is there a roadmap?

    Hi-

    im trying to understand the relative prestige/value of the different registration options for warmblood/sport horses in the US.

    For example:

    KWPN vs Westfalen vs Weser/Elms vs American Warmblood Society...

    Which of these many organizations carry weight with knowledgeable breeders and which are secondary in importance?

    I realize there are way more registries than in my example- is there an honest ranking somewhere of which ones are more respected or worth pursuing for young stock?

    Thanks!

  • #2
    As far as I can gather, the prestige registries are the European-based registries, and their North American offshoots may or may not water down the registration requirements a bit.

    As far as the European registries, they are regional/national rather than strict bloodline registries. So you could have foals from the same stallion in different registries. That means the bloodline of the horses matters as much as the registry when people are looking for prospects.

    Honestly my impression is that the strictly North American registries exist primarily to find a home base for horses that can't make it into one of the registries with a German or Dutch name

    If you want to evaluate the quality of the registry, look at what the registration requirements are. What is required of the parents? Is there an inspection process?

    In Canada, there is the Canadian Warmblood which carries less name value than the German registries, and then Canadian Sporthorse which has even looser requirements. I think similar in the USA.

    That said, being registered *somewhere* is still preferable for sporthorses to being just a grade horse of unknown parentage. At least a being a Canadian Sporthorse will give you a pedigree, even if it's mostly OTTB.

    Comment


    • #3
      First off there are two kinds of registries - breed and sport. And to further distinguish some by specialty of disciplines.

      The World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses would be a start.... http://www.wbfsh.org/GB/WBFSH.aspx

      and they have rankings http://www.wbfsh.org/GB/Rankings/Bre...ings/2019.aspx

      This is an interesting discussion of breedings and the registries.

      http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/201...rankings-2017/
      The cue card kid just held up an empty cue card. For a minute there I thought I had lost my sense of humor. --- Red Skelton

      Comment


      • #4
        That's really interesting! I assume the rankings are done by evaluating the quality of the foals of the stallions in that registry? Would this list show all the studs in that registry or just the top ones? i notice that there are only one or two studs in the Canadian and American WBS, and those are towards the end of the listings. And if you search, there are definitely studs from the same sire in different registries.

        I'd say though it depends on why OP is asking. If you are horse shopping in North America (or indeed anywhere) you really want to have an eye on the horse that's in front of you, because it's certainly possible to have a mediocre horse out of a reputable registry, or to have a horse with a Big Name several generations back that isn't that special.

        Comment


        • #5
          Sire rankings are by the get's performance points

          http://www.wbfsh.org/GB/Rankings/Sir...ings/2018.aspx

          I realize OP asked about U.S. registries but these are the bloodlines that carry the most weight and that was part of the question is there a roadmap and this federation looks at all the disciplines/and the major registries.
          The cue card kid just held up an empty cue card. For a minute there I thought I had lost my sense of humor. --- Red Skelton

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Thanks for the info... as always COTH cones through.

            I’m asking because I have a couple mares and I’m wondering how worth it it is to try to have them inspected for other groups, and I’m not sure who’s who.

            There is (as usual) some social media squabbling about relative value or maybe accuracy of different registries inspecting young horses and I’m trying to understand the lay of the land, as it were.

            Back in the day, I knew which of the which stock breed registries had weight vs some kind of vanity registries... but the warmblood scene is a whole new world to me.

            Comment


            • #7
              OP what discipline? And if you already have the mares, their bloodlines.
              The cue card kid just held up an empty cue card. For a minute there I thought I had lost my sense of humor. --- Red Skelton

              Comment


              • #8
                IMO only:

                1. AHS, KWPN
                2. GOV, sBs, BWP
                3. Westfalen (formerly RPSI)
                4. ISR/OldNA
                5. American or Canadian WB anything

                Comment


                • #9
                  As a shopper, I pay attention to the relative looseness/strictness of inspection requirements. It has resulted in an opinion of This order:
                  KWPN
                  AHS
                  TRAK
                  GOV

                  these seem to register anything:
                  ISR
                  American Warmblood
                  Canadian anything

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Thanks everyone. I have two sport type Haflinger mares- inspected and classified with that registry- but really just wondering what any of the other possible organizations' inspections would add any potential value to their purebred foals in the future. Not even sure if I'd ever breed either of them, but... they are a nice modern type and quite useful.Ride/drive/jump/traditional and western dressage shows, all quite low level but it's affordable fun with sound, charming horses.

                    There have been a few horses from our registry that have picked up other classifications and scored well- but I am just not sure what that actually means! Are these additional classifications of value, and respected by traditional sport horse breeders? These comments are really helpful.

                    i am trying to figure out all these sport horse inspections and registries, how they work, how horses move through the studbooks over time or with accomplishments- and which registries carry weight with buyers...and in general so I am not so ignorant about the greater world of sport horse breeding!

                    Many thanks.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Miss Motivation View Post
                      Thanks everyone. I have two sport type Haflinger mares- inspected and classified with that registry- but really just wondering what any of the other possible organizations' inspections would add any potential value to their purebred foals in the future. Not even sure if I'd ever breed either of them, but... they are a nice modern type and quite useful.Ride/drive/jump/traditional and western dressage shows, all quite low level but it's affordable fun with sound, charming horses.

                      There have been a few horses from our registry that have picked up other classifications and scored well- but I am just not sure what that actually means! Are these additional classifications of value, and respected by traditional sport horse breeders? These comments are really helpful.

                      i am trying to figure out all these sport horse inspections and registries, how they work, how horses move through the studbooks over time or with accomplishments- and which registries carry weight with buyers...and in general so I am not so ignorant about the greater world of sport horse breeding!

                      Many thanks.
                      If you want to get a foal registered in a reputable registry then his parents needs to be already accepted into that registry. I doubt that Halflingers are accepted breeding stock in any of the European warmblood registries because *they aren't warmbloods.*

                      If you wanted to get a horse approved for a given registry, it's likely a case of either a horse from another warmblood registry, or a TB that meets the standards. The inspections are rigorous, and they are looking for horses that will improve the breeding of top horses in that registry going forward into the future. They are looking for horse with high level potential, not nice all-rounders or low level horses.

                      As far as registries like Canadian or American Sport Horse, however, I have no idea what they would accept. Perhaps they would accept a Halflinger/TB or Halflinger/WB foal.

                      But my larger question is, why do you want to seek different registries for your horses? Halflingers are a recognized breed, they are very distinctive, there is a market for them, as you say nice all around horses/ponies at the lower levels. Anyone who looks at a Halflinger knows exactly what it is, and someone who wants a Halflinger wants one, someone who doesn't, not so much. I mean even if you found or founded The Random NorthAmerican Sport Horse Association, and got papers of some sort for your horses, everyone who looked at them would just say, but aren't they really Halflingers? It doesn't automatically make your horses 17 hands and dark bay to cook up some warmblood-sounding papers for them. I mean why not embrace what you have and be a Halflinger breeder?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Haflingers, I didn't see this one coming. I think Scribblers right, where are you going with this???

                        i'm puzzled, this isn't even a WB registry question. It's like asking can I drive my VW bug in the Indy 500.
                        Last edited by babecakes; Sep. 11, 2019, 10:19 PM.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Thanks for the info- I’m happy with my girls and their evaluations within our breed- but again, trying to understand all the options I see some others pursuing in the collecting of different breed inspection certifications.

                          The info here helps me understand the different registries and the hierarchy and legitimacy/value of their inspections.

                          Heres another Q: what IS a Warmblood?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Miss Motivation View Post
                            Heres another Q: what IS a Warmblood?
                            This question can be answered in a lot of different ways. The most generic answer is that what we conventionally think of as warmbloods are in fact, just registries.

                            Historically these registries were very regional in nature. Before the era of frozen semen and easy equine transport, the registries could have very unique bloodlines that were largely isolated. In the modern era however, some of those historic (and largely geographic) registries have coalesced into a bigger one, the bloodlines are typically very dispersed between them and not so registry unique any longer. A few specific registries comprise a majority of the warmbloods horse population due to sheer size (KWPN, Hannoveraner, Holsteiner, Oldenburg and then probably maybe Westfalen - there are other registries that still exist but they are much smaller and less common to come across, the ones listed are to my knowledge the largest - though the size between KWPN and Westfalen is extreme in its own right).

                            I do not include the sport horse registries when I mention the above, for the record. Performance based registries are another thing entirely from the conventional “warmblood” registry.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              In general, the European warmblood registries developed over the course of the 20th century to breed very high quality sport horses (show jumping, dressage, eventing) from mixing Thoroughbred blood with the local breeds of cavalry and harness horse. The aim was to get a horse with TB speed and heart, but more height, bone substance and in some cases much flashier gaits.

                              Breeding these horses was and is supported and regulated by governments as a national industry in a way that doesn't happen in North America. Many of the registries reflect the German town or region that the foundation stock came from such as Oldenburg, Hanover, Holstein, Westfalen, Trahkener, which were principalities with their own high end cavalry and coach horses before the unification of Germany. There are also WB registries in the Netherlands and Belgium, and of course now in many other countries but using horses from these Northern European breeding programs

                              The breeding program has been very successful, such that these countries tend to dominate in international equestrian competition and also that warmbloods have become pretty much the required kind of horse for high level jumping and dressage. I understand some riders still prefer TB for eventing because of sheer speed.

                              The registries remain open so that excellent horses of other registries and also some TB and even AngloArab horses (in the Selle Francais) can be included as it seems useful to develop the breed. I understand too that even if you have a foal from two registered parents, it needs to pass inspection before it can be registered itself.

                              However, while WB dominate at the highest levels of horse sport, it's also true there are a lot of mediocre WB, especially in North America where breeding is not regulated. However, even a mediocre WB commands a price premium over say a TB of equal quality, and it is also true that even a mediocre WB probably has more talent for competitive dressage than other breeds, since the rules of dressage have to an extent evolved alongside the horse: the emphasis on big gaits is an example of this. Take two equally well trained horses, and the one with the larger gaits will score higher on the same test, meaning that people will pay a premium for even a mediocre WB (mediocre compared to top WB).

                              In North America, the term "WB" can get diluted alot. People will call a TB/draft a WB, or a TB/WB when the TB parent is not accepted into any of the European registries. And of course NA has various WB and Sport Horse registries that do not have very strict entry requirements, compared to the European registries.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Scribbler View Post

                                If you want to get a foal registered in a reputable registry then his parents needs to be already accepted into that registry. I doubt that Halflingers are accepted breeding stock in any of the European warmblood registries because *they aren't warmbloods.*

                                Yes, Haflinger have their own registries plus Haflo-Arab. No way to get a Haflinger accepted in the Warmblood registries.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Salo View Post

                                  Yes, Haflinger have their own registries plus Haflo-Arab. No way to get a Haflinger accepted in the Warmblood registries.
                                  I know a breeder who has bred some Halflingers to German Riding Pony stallions and gotten really nice, athletic ponies. She's also bred one F1 cross mare to another GRP and gotten another great pony. I don't know if they are registered with any of the warmblood pony registries. You can PM me and I could give you her name if you want to follow-up.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Haflingers are covered under the Weser-Ems umbrella in Germany (Pferedestammbuch Weser Ems). Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society used to inspect Haflinger breeding stock here in NA for Weser-Ems approval but I have been out of the breeding world for a while so I don't know if that is still the case. You might want to reach out to them for more info. Try Sebastian Rohde - rohde.sebastian@oldenburger-pferde.com .

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Actually, selective breeding for riding lines in Europe goes back to the 1700s.

                                      This book is the best way to learn, IMHO.

                                      https://books.google.com/books/about...ok_description
                                      Show me your horse and I will tell you who you are.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Dressagelvr View Post
                                        Actually, selective breeding for riding lines in Europe goes back to the 1700s.

                                        This book is the best way to learn, IMHO.

                                        https://books.google.com/books/about...ok_description
                                        Great book and I'll second the recommendation. If you look at the history of the state studs, Celle was established in 1735 which may have been among the earliest. Westfalen's Warendorf wasn't until about a century later. The breeding direction of horses in Europe obviously has had some diametric changes (cavalry horses, farm horses, carriage horses, and then of course more recently high performance sport horses). The history of the various state studs is quite interesting and generally worth looking at if anyone has a passing interest. Some of the figures behind the formation and direction of them are really intriguing to read about.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X