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Vineyridge would you do this? Or that?

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  • Vineyridge would you do this? Or that?

    I'm doing the "looking for a stallion" annual hunt at the moment and have found a few that are interesting. One is older, 20 years old, but he's jumped at Nations Cup level and sired GP showjumpers and Advanced eventers. If I crossed him with my mare I would get the following linebreeding:

    ARCTIC STAR 5S x 4D (5x4)
    NEARCO 6S x 6S x 6S x 5D (5x5)
    NOGARA 7S x 7S x 6S x 7S x 6D (5x6)
    SON-IN-LAW 8S x 7S x 7D x 6D (6x6)
    HURRY ON 7S x 7S x 7S x 8D x 9D x 8D (6x6)
    CORONACH 6S x 8d x 7d
    THE TETRARCH 8s x 8s x 9s x 7D x 8D x 8D
    MUMTAZ BEGUM 6S x 7s
    PRECIPITATION 6S x 7D
    BLANDFORD 7S x 8S x 9S x 7D
    PHALARIS 8S x 8S x 8S x 7D x 9d

    Which is rather a nice line up of TB jumping bloodlines isn't it? The only worry with him is I don't know if he's licenced to export semen.

    Or there's another one that is young and unproven but if I used him I would get this linebreeding plus the full sister of Roselier in the 4th generation.


    FLANEUR5 4S x 7s (5x5)
    ARCTIC STAR 7s x 4D (5x5)
    NEARCO 8S x 9s x 9s x 7s x 8S x 7S x 8S x 5D (5x5)
    BIG GAME 8s x 8s x 5D (6x6)
    SON-IN-LAW 8S x 7D x 6D
    HYPERION 9s x 9S x 8S x 9s x 9s x 7D
    THE TETRARCH 9s x 7D x 8D x 8D
    HURRY ON 9s x 9s x 9s x 8D x 9D x 8D

    Another possibility has sired national champion showjumpers and two advanced eventers. He would bring in two lines to Arctic Star that are different to each other and different to the one my mare carries.

    ARCTIC STAR 8S x 6S x 4D (5x5)
    NEARCO 9S x 6S x 7S x 5D (5x6)
    ARCTIC STORM 7S x 5S (6x6)
    PHAROS 7S x 7S x 8S x 6D (6x6)
    SON-IN-LAW 8S x 9S x 7D x 6D
    THE TETRARCH 8s x 9S x 9s x 7D x 8D x 8D
    HURRY ON 8S x 8S x 8D x 9D x 8D
    PRECIPITATION 7S x 7D

    What do you think?

  • #2
    Give me some time to think on it.

    Also for fun, take a look at Fly Society in Denmark. Flat racer, but droolworthy and would give a double to Arctic Star. His is through Etoile de France, who is in In The Wings. Fly Society raced for seven years or so. He's unproven as a sire, but has passed inspections.

    He's in the thread here on the Danish stallion.
    Last edited by vineyridge; Aug. 16, 2010, 05:20 PM.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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    • Original Poster

      #3
      Thanks Viney.

      I followed the link to Fly Society, he is handsome isn't he? And he carries some lovely bloodlines. Good job he's in Denmark so I can't be tempted.

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      • #4
        Sure you can be tempted. Christ and Saint Augustine both were tempted, but neither fell.
        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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        • #5
          How do they do on the Blandford front? I'D be tempted to go with the one with the most Blandford, and that appears to be #1.
          Last edited by vineyridge; Aug. 17, 2010, 03:37 PM.
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          • Original Poster

            #6
            That's interesting as he isn't a sire I take a lot of notice of at the moment. Why do you like Blandford so much?

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            • #7
              So who is stallion #1?
              "Sometimes you just have to shut up and color."

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              • #8
                Blandford may be the greatest sport horse line in history. Tail female to Black Duchess. Sire's dam was Canterbury Pilgrim. Tail male Granddam was La Fleche. Damsires's dam was a daughter of Galopin. Mares were outstanding, best of the best.

                Sired: sires
                Umidwar
                Anwar
                Blenheim II
                Badruddin
                Bahram
                Brantome
                Isolater
                Windsor Lad

                Mares:
                Udiapur (full sister to Umidwar)
                Wild Violet, dam of Wild Risk
                Reine Iseult
                La Furka
                Mrs. Rustom

                Grandsire of Nasrullah, Ultimate, Norseman, Mahmoud among many others.

                Descendants include almost all SFs; Emali, dam of Aberali. Uvira, dam of Missy Baba. Lucky Boy. Almost all great American sport horses through Blenheim 2 and Nasrullah and Mahmoud. Ultimate is the grandsire of Alme. Norseman is the grandsire of Laudanum.

                I've been researching just Umidwar recently, and the number of descendants all over Europe who have competed at the very highest levels of sport is staggering. The prospect of Ultimate, when I do finally make it to him, is daunting. It might include the entire SF sport horse family.

                Bahram is all over as well, and Nasrullah is a North American icon.

                His daughters are just as nice as his sons in the main.

                He was a foundation sire for the Aga Khan stud.
                Last edited by vineyridge; Aug. 17, 2010, 06:57 PM.
                "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Is that all? ROFL! I feel very uneducated. Many thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge Viney.

                  I've just found another one that I didn't know existed. He's had almost no mares but has got an advanced eventer from his stock who number ?less than 5.

                  The linebreeding with him are here:

                  TOP STAR3 3s x 3d (3x3)
                  NEARCO 8S x 5S x 5D (5x5)
                  SON-IN-LAW 8s x 7S x 6S x 9s x 8s x 8s x 7D x 6D (5x6)
                  PHALARIS 8S x 8S x 8S x 8S x 7S x 9S x 8S x 7D x 9d (6x6)
                  PHAROS 9S x 9s x 9S x 6S x 6D (6x6)
                  FAIR TRIAL 6S x 6S (6x6)
                  SCAPA FLOW 8S x 8S x 7S x 9S x 8S x 7D (< 6x6)
                  THE TETRARCH 8s x 7S x 9s x 7D x 8D x 8D (< 6x6)
                  HURRY ON 9S x 9s x 8S x 7S x 9S x 8D x 9D x 8D (< 6x6)
                  PRECIPITATION 6s x 7D (< 6x6)
                  BLANDFORD 8s x 8s x 9S x 8s x 7D (< 6x6)

                  My only reservation with this one is that Top Star was known to be quirky and throw brilliant but complicated offspring. Do I want to linebreed 3x3 to a stallion with that temperament? My mare is sharp but very trainable. The stallion I don't know at all but he's standing at a very reputable stud run by people who have competed at European level.

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                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Ponygirl stallion #1 is Clover Brigade.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You know that Scapa Flow was also a granddaughter of Canterbury Pilgrim--as was Selene.

                      Top Star is tail male Nearco, and Nearco is rather famous for iffy dispositions. Certainly not all the time, but enough to be noticeable. Nasrullah did not get his temperament from his dam side. Nor did Royal Charger's sons.

                      But (and this is a huge but) it's possible that dicey temperaments are testosterone related in Nearco descendants. So if the Top Star is not direct male line, it might not be at all high on the probability scale.
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                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        If anyone is wondered why we're waffling on about these bloodlines they are some of the foundation sires of most of the major studbooks in Europe.

                        Hurry On is the sire of Precipitation and Precipitation is the sire of Furioso. The influence of Precipitation can be read here:

                        http://www.thehorsemagazine.com/BREE...cipitation.htm

                        Son-in-Law is equally influential. The story of his sire Bay Ronald is here:

                        http://www.horsemagazine.com/BREEDIN...bayronald.html

                        Or to summarise Son-in-Law founded arguably the greatest dynasty of staying national hunt racehorses from 1900-2000. Since breeders of steeplechasers are always keen on good staying blood, it is not surprising that Son-in-Law can be found in many good chaser pedigrees. He also left a major mark on thoroughbred breeding in New Zealand, where his son Beau Pere was two time champion sire, and where his grandson Foxbridge was the leading sire for an incredible eleven seasons, from 1941 to 1951.
                        It is particularly interesting that the incidents of leading sires who are linebred to Dark Ronald and Son-in-Law is highest in Holstein. Household names who were linebred to Dark Ronald are Cor de la Bryère, Landgraf I and Lord - in other words, the studbooks most prolific sire-makers. Cor de la Bryère was linebred 5 x 5 to Dark Ronald through Rantzau and Furioso, Lord 5 x 6 through Cottage Son and Ladykiller, and Landgraf I 6 x 6 through Ladykiller and Anblick. Among the studbooks more recent stars, Calando I, Caletto I and Caletto II were linebred 5 x 6 x 6 to Son-in-Law

                        Then there is Arctic Star who is direct male line to the great Clover Hill and in the paternal line of Cruising via his good steeplechasing son Arctic Storm and outstanding eventing grandson Arctic Que who is still in the top 50 sires of all time in British Eventing. Arctic Star also started a national hunt dynasty being sire to flat racing Irish Derby and St Leger winners and also grandsire to more than one Gold Cup winner. Arctic Star's son Top Star sired several advanced eventers and at least one Nations Cup showjumper. He even led to the dam of Arcticonius who sired 4 approved Trakehner stallions one of whom is Arogno, sire of the GP dressage horse Partout.

                        In other words these lines are foundation lines for Holstein, Hanovarian, Trakehner and Selle Francais. They have been successful in racing on the flat, racing over jumps, Olympic level showjumping, Olympic dressage and Olympic eventing.

                        And the sad part is that these lines are now rare and old. To find them close up is unusual. They are worth preserving and searching for because they will probably produce more good horses in the future.

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                        • #13
                          Black Duchess was the dam of Bay Ronald, who is the tail male grandsire of Hyperion and sire of Dark Ronald. Son-In-Law is a direct descendant. So not only is he (Bay Ronald) influential in European studbooks, he's hugely influential in North America through descendants of Hyperion. Beau Pere stood in the United States at the end of his career, and he's a lovely, but rare, line to find.

                          BTW, Top Star is also tail female to Black Duchess.

                          Add KWPN with Lucky Boy to the studbooks who are strongly based on great TB sires.
                          Last edited by vineyridge; Aug. 17, 2010, 06:59 PM.
                          "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            I think I'm going to have to visit the stallion whose maternal grandsire is Top Star aren't I? He is sired by the great Mayhill, Mark Todd's 4 star eventer who is 17th in the list of all time eventing sires with British Eventing.

                            Goodness knows where this stallion has been hiding up until now!!!

                            http://www.westkingtonstud.co.uk/dow...per2010web.pdf

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                            • #15
                              Definitely worth a visit.

                              Have I ever mentioned how much I love Sea Bird? Because I do. He stood in the US at the end of his life, and has some super sport descendants. He wasn't as good with the North American mare base as he was in Europe, but that seems to happen fairly often.
                              "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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                              • #16

                                Like him! You must report back
                                Liz
                                Ainninn House Stud
                                Irish Draughts and Connemaras
                                Co. Westmeath, Ireland

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                                • #17
                                  I had a mare with Beau Pere closer up - she was great.
                                  Love the Hyperion!!
                                  WOW Viney you are amazing!!
                                  Sue
                                  The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
                                  H. Cate

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                                  • #18
                                    Canterbury Pilgrim is the line that ties almost all sport horses together. Blandford passed on her X chromosome unchanged, and so did her son, Chaucer, the sire of Selene and Scapa Flow.
                                    Selene is the dam of Hyperion, Sickle (tail male to Native Dancer), Pharamond II (tail male to Menow and Tom Fool and Buckpasser), and the Hunter's Moon who got sent to Argentina. Her daughter All Moonshine was the dam of Mossborough. Scapa Flow is the dam of Pharos (sire of Nearco and others) Fairway (sire of Fair Trial) and the very good mare, Fair Isle.
                                    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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