Stallion Spotlight

Zucchero Gold - Wandres, Frederic - 838-BC18_REU2723-foto_reumann

Real Estate Spotlight

Spratt_air 1
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.



Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You�re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it�details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums� policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it�s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users� profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses � Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it�s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who�s selling it, it doesn�t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions � Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services � Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products � While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements � Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be �bumped� excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues � Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators� discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you�d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user�s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Clones - success or failure?

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Clones - success or failure?

    readers might find this article of interest, regards, Chris Hector

  • #2
    Very well written as anything Mr Hector writes. I think De Brabander is straight on point. I think the question is pointless, as it pertains to stallions, on a breeding standpoint. Genetic material transmitted by the cloned stallion is exactly the same as with the original one. Therefore if the original stallion was valuable, the cloned one will be as well. The only question is to know if the clone of a horse born 30-35 years ago will still be relevant in todays breeding. My own personnal opinion is that breeding should always be evolving, and keeping breeding to stallions from decades past results in breeding backwards. Sure you know what you get, and they are probably better than the average stallion available. However, the best stallions of today should be way ahead of those good stallions of the past. With regards to clones of gueldings, it will depend on each specific case, and they will have to prove themselves as stallions the way the original proved itself as a sport horse. But you would still be breeding to a horse that was conceived 20 or 30 years ago, for the sport as it was back then. Another thing I always keep in mind is that someone took the decision to gueld these horses at some point, which raises the question as to if they are stallion material.

    As for mares, the mytochondrial DNA of the clone is different to the one of the original mare and I think it is too early to know Time will tell!!!


    • #3
      Time will tell, I think, about the mares cloned; as mentioned by Cumano, the mtDNA is different with mares - best to find a close relation to the individual being cloned, I am told.

      I totally agree with Joris about the value of cloning a stallion that has already had significant access to the mare base. It does nothing to improve the gene pool that was not already there... I would much rather see cloning efforts be given to the incredible mare athletes, and even geldings which never had a chance to impact the breeding pool. We already have the breeding pool shrinking due to en vogue stallions that service/breed/cover 3k mares.. astronomical amount... which means over time less and less genetic diversity...

      I think of all the very promising young stars who had their careers cut short by untimely death and think, those are horses I would have loved to see clone..

      Of course, I say that with someone with very little skin in the game.. cloning is expensive.. and totally something I would do, if I had the capital.
      AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012


      • #4
        I think it's a bit unfair to look at performance records of clones as a determining factor of success or failure, as it seems a lot of them are cloned solely for the purpose of breeding, not competing. And, they are still just horses, with a whole bunch of reasons why even the best-bred horses don't make it to the show ring, let along the big rings.

        I'm 100% in agreement that it's dumb to clone stallions who have already made their mark. Zero reason to do that.

        Geldings and mares, and young stallions who either never bred or bred very few mares due to an untimely death, yes, even mares who have produced successful breeding offspring, since they only have so many foals. But that doesn't mean I think they should be cloned over and over - once it good enough.
        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET


        • #5
          Good read. I had no idea how extensively some of these clones were bred (Ratina Z, for example).

          I'm surprised there was no mention of the Cruising clones, probably because they are unaffiliated with Stal de Muze.

          I also agree that I don't fully grasp the idea of cloning successful, proven stallions. I suppose it's tempting to always have a source of fresh semen, but it doesn't provide much in terms of improving the breed. You risk a whole lot of genetic diversity.

          It'll be exciting to see this topic revisited in 5 or 10 years as more offspring reach performance age.
          Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO


          • #6
            Also, the article on cloning does not take discuss epigenetics - a process by which certain genes are turned on or off due to environmental pressures on an organism. These changes can then be passed for a few generations. We are really just starting to understand epigenetics, but it could factor in given that the clones cannot be raised in exactly the same environment as their progenitors.

            "Geneticists analyzed 200 years worth of harvest records from a small town in Sweden. They saw a connection between food availability (large or small harvests) in one generation and the incidence of diabetes and heart disease in later generations. The amount of food a grandfather had to eat between the ages of 9 and 12 was especially important. This is when boys go through the slow growth period (SGP), and form the cells that will give rise to sperm. As these cells form, the epigenome is copied along with the DNA. Since the building blocks for the epigenome come from the food a boy eats, his diet could impact how faithfully the epigenome is copied. The epigenome may represent a snapshot of the boy’s environment that can pass through the sperm to future generations." There are also studies linking environmental exposures to mental health outcomes in humans and to animal behaviors: "Nurturing behavior in rats
            Rat pups who receive high or low nurturing from their mothers develop epigenetic differences that affect their response to stress later in life. When the female pups become mothers themselves, the ones that received high quality care become high nurturing mothers. And the ones that received low quality care become low nurturing mothers. The nurturing behavior itself transmits epigenetic information onto the pups' DNA, without passing through egg or sperm."


            • #7
              A very interesting article. Thank you classen_eventer.


              • #8
                Guess it depends upon the discipline. In the top levels of polo they almost exclusively use clones
                McDowell Racing Stables

                Home Away From Home


                • #9
                  It was interesting but I felt a bit unrealistic negging the performance records of the offspring. Few had more than a couple six year olds competing so it is way too early to tell whether they will jump internationally.

                  I also felt the article characterized the reaction as somewhat negative, where the reality is that it is a terrific opportunity for a horse that was gelded early and he was quite enthusiastic about Gem Twist's clones. And time will tell, but possibly for mares who have far more limited numbers of foals they can produce. For a stallion who has produced 3k foals, I can't see the point.

                  Maybe if an exceptional stallion doesn't freeze well a clone might do better? That would be interesting.

                  To some extent all of the horses cloned have been exceptional and it is very, very rare to know what influence they will have, and few horses at that level reproduce themselves or better. Secretariat was considered a failure for a while, but turns out to be quite a terrific sire of broodmares. Ask him again in 30 years....


                  • #10
                    The Gem Twist clones as stallions are an interesting case, given that the sire line was legendary for consistently passing on jumping talent (Good Twist, New Twist, Bonne Nuit). I can understand why Gem Twist was cloned, given that he was a gelding, and why the clones would be successful stallions.

                    I am VERY curious to see how the Tamarillo clone, Tomatillo, works out. Not as obvious and consistent direct sire line in terms of producing top level talent in sport as the Twist line Thoroughbreds. However... a one of a kind world class gelding, and worth paying attention to how the offspring do in the long run.