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Different stud fees for same stallion

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  • Different stud fees for same stallion

    What is the reasoning behind charging different stud fees based on the color of the mare? I saw a website for a cremello stallion and the fees were double if the mare was also a cremello.

    I am just curious.

  • #2
    Yes, there is a very good reason.

    Because cremello is "homozygous" for producing buckskin/palomino, if bred to another "dilute" or "double dilute" that greatly increases the chance of the foal being double dilute, which in turn may greatly increase the value.

    Many pinto breeders do the same -- I think Sempatico owner Liz Hall has a sliding stud fee for him as well, since he is homozygous for pinto.

    So if I breed my solid bay mare to a cremello, I'll get a buckskin. Period. I breed her to Sempatico, and I'll get a heterozygous pinto. Period.

    But if I bred my palomino mare (or even a cremello mare) to the cremello stallion, the odds of getting another cremello is GREATLY increased.

    Ditto for pintos -- that is why Liz charged more for pinto colored sporthorse mares -- one of them bred to Sempatico could easily throw a homozygous horse that could be just as marketable as Sempatico himself some day...not to mention much more valuable as a foal (assuming quality of course).

    Make sense?

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    • #3
      Double dilutes (Smoky Cream, Cremello, Perlino) are usually worth more than a single dilute or non-dilute of the same quality. Usually then the stallion owners of Double Dilutes, knowing that the Prices of the Double dilute foals will be more, charge more.. since it's guaranteed you are getting a more valuable color. Cremello x Perlino, Smoky Cream or Cremello, are guaranteed to produce another double dilute. So a lot will go, okay, for "regular non dilute mares" (no chance of double dilute offspring) the charge is 1,000, for single dilutes (because of a 50/50 chance you'll get a double dilute) it's $1250, and for a double dilute (100% chance of getting double dilute) it's $1500.

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      • Original Poster

        #4
        I guess I can understand but the "product" is all the same no matter what the mare looks like. Is this the standard practice in color-breeding? What about the breeding of a top hunter stud - do they charge more if your mare is more likely to produce a champion?

        It just seems strange to me. What if you did AI? The stallion owner wouldn't even know if you were using it on a donkey.

        Again, I am just trying to learn. I don't even own a mare.

        Comment


        • #5
          If you breed a cremello to a cremello, you *will* get a cremello. And therefore, you have a 50/50 chance of breeding a rival.

          There is no guarantee that a hunter sire *will* sire a better son than himself.

          And stallion contract specifically state which mare you can breed to which stud. Go ahead and breed to a donkey if you want, but a DNA test when you go to register the offspring will give it away. Or if you don't register, fine. Tell everyone your horse is by Fluffy The Wonderhorse, but you can't prove it if you want to sell it, and no one will want to breed to it because the offspring can't be registered either.

          oh, and breeding is expensive. Very Expensive. Why would you breed Fluffy The Wonderhorse to a donkey when you could breed him to Fluffette for the same price and have something actually worth something. Doesn't make sense.
          Last edited by Molly Malone; Aug. 3, 2010, 11:25 PM. Reason: added comment
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          • #6
            Originally posted by Weighaton View Post
            but the "product" is all the same no matter what the mare looks like.
            Thats the thing, the product WOUDLNT be the same. The color is an ADDED factor. Its not the only factor, but it is a factor.

            If a cremello stallion with a great record has a foal with a chestnut mare and has a palomino foal that has a great record, the cremello stallion has something that the palomino doesn't. A guaranteed dilute foal coloring.

            If you breed a cremello stallion with a great record to a cremello mare, you get a cremello foal. If that cremello foal then gains a great record then its the same as the original stallion.

            So if I breed my solid bay mare to a cremello, I'll get a buckskin. Period.
            Wasn't going to mention this, but its bothering me. You could also potentially get palomino or smoky black from this cross.
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            • #7
              Depending on genetics.. if solid bay mare is tested EE AA then only a buckskin is possible.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DandyMatiz View Post
                Depending on genetics.. if solid bay mare is tested EE AA then only a buckskin is possible.
                Yes, which is why I said potentially. There is no "Period." about breeding a random bay to a cremello.
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                • #9
                  Sporthorse stallions often give discounted breedings to good mares - as this increases the chance of producing a superior foal (in terms of athleticism, conformation, rideability) - and hence will enhance the reputation and value of the stallion.
                  However, for breeders of colour, where athleticism conformation etc are secondary to colour as a determinant of value, I guess the SO just wants to reduce the risk of competition and will charge more to amelerioate the risk of competition - as the one factor (colour) is so important to that kind of breeder.
                  So, a different value system -- depends on your breeding aims I guess.
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                  • #10
                    kind of lol. Alot offer 1/2 price breed backs if you geld colts too, and not just the "not as great" ones, but all of them. And that practice goes back to the 60s, in a lot of breeds. I remember Raffon's owners did that.. and as a result, not very many of his sons bred on (couldn't). Many had good show careers though.

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                    • #11
                      I'd MUCH rather see a color breeder charging more for colored mares than what I recently saw with a SO offering a discount for UNregistered mares
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                      • #12
                        Yeah, i never did understand that JB.. I mean in some breeds, the price is lower for mares of another breed (in some cases).. I know of Arab breeders who offer there stallion for 2k to arab mares, 1500 for non arab.. and i've seen it on some welsh websites too.. but in both cases, the foals are registerable. I don't understand it in either case, but it's not as scary in the case that the foal can be registerd lol.

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                        • #13
                          Hmmm! So I guess I could increase the price of a Thoroughbred gelding I have for sale that has sunbleached from black/bay to a sort of buckskin using that logic?
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DandyMatiz View Post
                            Yeah, i never did understand that JB.. I mean in some breeds, the price is lower for mares of another breed (in some cases).. I know of Arab breeders who offer there stallion for 2k to arab mares, 1500 for non arab.. and i've seen it on some welsh websites too.. but in both cases, the foals are registerable. I don't understand it in either case, but it's not as scary in the case that the foal can be registerd lol.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by RiddleMeThis View Post
                              Yes, which is why I said potentially. There is no "Period." about breeding a random bay to a cremello.
                              This is strictly true, but I didn't really want to muddy the waters for the OP, who obviously knows nothing about color genetics and wasn't asking (really).

                              The "period" part really meant there was no chance of getting a cremello/perlino.

                              And as a point of interest, I bred my cremello stallion to a ton of bay mares and he never did produce anything but buckskins. He produced 2 smokey blacks, but those were both from the same mare, who was black herself.

                              So I figured I wouldn't get real complicated, since that wasn't the actual question.

                              But you are technically correct!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                The fact that he was able to produce smoky black meant he was at best Aa. Breeding to A? mares gives a 75% chance, or better, of producing buckskin *assuming* the mares are EE. Given that he's ee, either you won some lottery, or the majority of the mares were EE and you got lucky with the Ee mareas. Otherwise, there would have been palominos in the mix.

                                Not that you didn't know that, just pointing out the details for those who might not
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                                • #17
                                  I have seen WB stallions where teh stud fee was higher for registered Dutch mares (when the stallion was Dutch) because in theory, a son could eventually become a rival.
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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by JB View Post
                                    The fact that he was able to produce smoky black meant he was at best Aa. Breeding to A? mares gives a 75% chance, or better, of producing buckskin *assuming* the mares are EE. Given that he's ee, either you won some lottery, or the majority of the mares were EE and you got lucky with the Ee mareas. Otherwise, there would have been palominos in the mix.
                                    Actually, I'm not sure I DO know this!

                                    My stallion was o/o a palomino mare by a palomino stallion -- I thought the agouti gene couldn't be carried forward without "showing" itself.

                                    Wouldn't the smokey black results come from the MARE? Not that any of this is the point of the thread, but it's good to clarify.

                                    But he never did produce anything but buckskins from the bay mares, and (of course) palies from the chestnuts. And 2 smokies from that one mare.

                                    So maybe I did just get lucky?

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Yes, a cremello (or red based horse) can indeed carry the agouti gene and not be known. The agouti gene is only expressed on a black based horse and will know show on a red based.
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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
                                        Actually, I'm not sure I DO know this!
                                        Well, I did give you the benefit LOL!

                                        My stallion was o/o a palomino mare by a palomino stallion -- I thought the agouti gene couldn't be carried forward without "showing" itself.
                                        The fact that he's cremello makes his parents a non-issue when it comes to the Extension - he's ee. But, Agouti is an *entirely* separate gene, and ONLY affects black-based hair. That means - no effect on the red-based colors. So, an ee horse can be AA and you'd never know just by looking at him.

                                        The fact that both parents were pali doesn't help at all in guessing or knowing his Agouti status.

                                        Wouldn't the smokey black results come from the MARE? Not that any of this is the point of the thread, but it's good to clarify.
                                        The smoky part came from the stallion via the cream. The black part was all mare, as your boy only had red to give. The fact that the foal was smoky black, and not buckskin, means that both horses were at best Aa. Your boy could have been aa, but odds would indicate it's more likely he was Aa. So, he passed on eaCr, and the mare passed on Eacr, giving you EeaaCrcr - smoky black

                                        But he never did produce anything but buckskins from the bay mares, and (of course) palies from the chestnuts. And 2 smokies from that one mare.

                                        So maybe I did just get lucky?
                                        Yep, you got lucky. It's more common for black-based horses to be Ee, meaning with each breeding, it's a 50/50 shot at a black- vs red-based color. It would have been highly unusual to have all/most of the mares he bred to to be EE, but the odds of that, vs producing all buckskins out of Ee mares is still probably about in the same lottery category
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