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US Stud Fees

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  • #41
    I would also like to point out the people (like myself) that are breeding their sole mare to have a foal to keep for themselves. I cannot afford a top quality sport horse. I have a nice TB mare that I purchased for a very decent price. Breeding her to a quality stallion and keeping the offspring gives me a chance to own a well bred sport horse prospect. If the stallion pool was limited to high stud fees and restricting mediocre mares- people such as myself would not have the opportunity to produce a nice foal.
    This world (aka the breeding one) is very new to me and I am dazzled, thrilled, and amazed by the stallions out there. Mind boggling, actually. I looked at the for sale sections on the web-sites of these stallions and would not even have been able to afford a weanling. But for a reasonably priced stud fee, and the associated costs of breeding- I will (hopefully) have a foal that will potentially be just as nice.

    I didn't just breed to the stallion I choose b/c I think it's a nice stallion. I bred my mare to him b/c it's an awesome stallion that when crossed with TB mares that look a heck of a lot like mine- has produced amazing foals. The owner gave me a reasonable stud fee, was VERY accomodating, very informative, and literally held my hand through the whole thing.

    So, I totally forgot what my point was- but the breeding "market" as far as mare owners is concerned certainly runs the gammet of both types of mares and knowledge of the breeders. A stallion that can cover many of these aspects for a reasonable fee is a jewel in the nile- as is the stallions owner IMO.
    Celtic Pride Farm
    www.celticpridefarm.com
    Become a fan on Facebook!

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    • #42
      Like Okggo, I was breeding to keep. Now, I have a very nice mare Anglo-Trak (not just my opinion) but, low and behold, couldn't get her pregnant. I have a nice TB mare but she's not quite the mover the first is. I booked with the first and never could get her pregnant. Thankfully, the stallion owner gave me a discount to try them both at once so I was able to get my foal last year and a second this year since the AT mare slipped. I sure am glad SO ok'd my doing the second mare even though she wasn't quite as nice! My yearling filly isn't as fancy a mover as I would have liked but she sure can use herself and I've been told she will be a "very nice future dressage horse". The new filly is a fancier mover. I'm very happy with them both and I'm grateful to the SO for making it affordable for me and granting me the opportunity to raise my own. I brought her flowers after the second was born. Her comment was something like, I really like making clients happy. I'm happy!

      The Girls
      Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. Goethe

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      • #43
        mbp,

        I think you are right. Did you watch his video clip on the web site? The foals are amazing. the vets who AIed the TB mares in other states and the one who AIed the QH mare in Houston are saying these foals are some of the nicest Warmbloods they have ever seen.

        It will be nice to get the approvals behind us. I really wish AHS would accept his tests, but they won't because it wasn't done in Germany. My imported mares are AHS eligible and would probably do very well at the inspecitons. At least the RPSI is supportive of themarket we have here in America. They do a veyr good job with that.

        Donna
        Carson Farm

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        • Original Poster

          #44
          Ok but say mare quality isn't an issue, say I have an imported premium mares. Let's say that I have the opportunity to breed to Stallion A that is a proven horse in both his offspring and in a performance career OR to Stallion B who is a young stallion that has very nice conformation and a very interesting pedigree. Say they are both stallions that would compliment this mare. If the fee for the younger stallion was more of an "introductory fee" I would be more inclined to breed to him, otherwise, if I have to pay the higher fee anyway - why would I not go with the proven stallion instead, what is my enticement to use the younger stallion?
          http://www.wbhorses.com

          Comment


          • #45
            Donna, I have always wanted to know why you don't have a pedigree chart for your guy on your website (or am I thick and I just missed it)? I read the discussion of his bloodlines but I have never seen them layed out. Am I missing something?

            PS He looks very nice.

            CindyGen,

            That is my point exactly. And if you know a stallion produces nice get with OK mares. What will he produces with a premium mare?
            See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

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            • Original Poster

              #46
              See but you don't know what he'll produce, he has no foals on the ground, at least not the young stallion.
              http://www.wbhorses.com

              Comment


              • #47
                No, I am agreeing with you, CindyGen. In fact, I found myself in this exact scenario before I chose a stallion. I have a mare who is an SPS candiate (maiden). There were a few young relatively unproven stallions I could have bred her to but I chose to go with a proven stallion by frozen (even though there is more risk because she is a maiden) because I had the chance to evaluate the proven stallions get and the stud fee (by frozen) low. I could buy 3 doses of frozen to this proven stallion for about the same cost as the unproven stallion's fee.
                See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Mbp, some of what you say might make sense for many stallion owners, but not for this one. As she has said to me - She is not in this to make money, she is not in this to put as many foals on the ground by her stallion as possible, and she is not in this to help owners of low-end, mediocre mares get a foal on the ground as cheaply as possible. She believes that she has a quality stallion. She wants him to breed to quality mares (and no one said anything about him being restricted to only SPS mares - although she does offer a discount to premium mares). If she opens his book up to just ANY mare, and lowers his stud fee, he is going to get a lot of mediocre mares, which increases the odds that a higher percentage of his foals will be mediocre. Again, no matter how good a stallion is at "improving" his mares, the more mediocre mares he breeds, the more likely he is to put lesser quality foals on the ground. From the stallion owner's perspective, it is far better to have 20 premium foals out of 20 mares than 20 premium foals out of 200 mares.

                  Also, no mare owner likes to hear that her mare isn't "good enough" for a stallion. By having a relatively high stud fee, this stallion owner automatically weeds out many lesser-quality mares, for the simple reason that people aren't as willing to spend money on low-end mares as on high-quality mares. It saves her from having to tell people that their mare isn't quite the quality she is looking for.

                  I totally understand stallion owners like GW Ranch, Hilltop, Rainbow Equus, Silverwood, etc., who are in the game to make money, and who will book as many mares to their stallions as they think the horse can handle, but I also understand the other point of view. Some stallion owners just don't want - or need - a multitude of their stallion's foals on the ground. They'd rather have a few really good ones out of really good mares, than dozens of so-so ones out of so-so mares.

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                  • Original Poster

                    #49
                    Yes exactly. Take Sporthorse South's example - I'm pretty sure I know the stallion she is talking about. I got the video of him and I liked him, I called his owner and she did offer a discount for my premium mare, but not enough of one to make much difference for me. There was another stallion that I liked for the mare that had several foal crops on the ground and has been shown successfully in Germany, available by frozen semen for under $500 a dose I chose to go with the frozen. The mare is in foal on one cycle with one dose and I have around $700 total in that breeding right now. There is of course no LFG, but by the time I ad collections and shipping costs, another dose of the frozen to breed her back would still cost less if she lost the foal. I liked both stallions very much, and I may still use the first stallion at some point, but I will wait until he's proven himself more if I have to pay full price. I bought four doses of semen from the stallion I used for less than one studfee for the younger stallion. If the SO is concerned with only attracting quality mares, perhaps she could offer a larger discount for premium mares or mares that produced premium foals in the past, or offer frozen semen at a per dose price to select mares.
                    http://www.wbhorses.com

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                    • Original Poster

                      #50
                      I'd also like to point out that the stallion I mention in the previous post is not the same one that I originally posted about, nor is he for the same mare.
                      http://www.wbhorses.com

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        After breeding to Budweiser his first year at a tremendously low fee and having a fabulous foal out of a mediocre mare, I am sold on picking traits my mare needs not necessarily from the stallion but from his pedigree. When breeding to a proven stallion, I look for those traits in the offspring.

                        Soon after Budweiser was imported, a similarly bred stallion became available. His stud fee was $2500. So, you have two almost equal stallions ... similar pedigree, Budweiser was actually much more attractive in conformation, both are approved and 100 day tested, Budweiser had better scores, both are unproven. Who would you choose???

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                        • #52
                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sporthorse South:

                          Also, no mare owner likes to hear that her mare isn't "good enough" for a stallion. By having a relatively high stud fee, this stallion owner automatically weeds out many lesser-quality mares, for the simple reason that people aren't as willing to spend money on low-end mares as on high-quality mares. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                          Heck there are always people out there with money to throw away. I think if they want the stallion bad enough they will breed their beloved dobbinette to him regardless. To me the SO should screen the mares if they are concerned about quality. Raising the price does not effect quality..it just raises the bar for who can and cant afford it.

                          Im in CindyGen's shoes too. I have two nice mares, one a maiden and one a proven producer. I would have liked to bred the maiden with fresh but frankly the stallions I like for her are over $2500 or not in my registry. So we are going frozen semen and even purchasing 4 doses to some really nice stallions (3) I still have spent less then a stud fee and collections. This is a premium imported mare who was also an Elite auction foal and mare so her quality is not an issue.
                          ~Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away...

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                          • #53
                            The pedigree was on the site. I never know what Mr. CF is doing with the web site. I'll check it. I can email it to you if you want.

                            Donna

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                            • #54
                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I totally understand stallion owners like GW Ranch, Hilltop, Rainbow Equus, Silverwood, etc., who are in the game to make money, and who will book as many mares to their stallions as they think the horse can handle, but I also understand the other point of view. Some stallion owners just don't want - or need - a multitude of their stallion's foals on the ground. They'd rather have a few really good ones out of really good mares, than dozens of so-so ones out of so-so mares. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              The only thing I would like to point out is that those stallions DO have really good foals out of so-so mares. You don't have to have an "elite" mare to be able to have great off spring by these stallions. Look at Art Deco- his offsprings performance record speaks for itself. That is a stallion that really produces well.

                              My mare has AMAZING race pedigree, is tall, built very well, and very athletic. A pasture accident left her lame before I had a chance to start competing her. Even though she may be a "so-so" mare by these terms, she is still a very nice mare that when crossed with a compatable stallion will (I HOPE) throw a high quality foal.
                              I'de just be curious what would make a stallion owner that only breeds to "high quality" mares turn a mare down? Seeing the mare, inspection scores- or lack thereof, pedigree, breed?
                              Celtic Pride Farm
                              www.celticpridefarm.com
                              Become a fan on Facebook!

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                              • #55
                                Stallions should be "improvement" stallions because they are standing at stud. A stallion should represent their breed in a top class way and also be consistent and prepotent enough to mirror their own traits in their offspring to a high degree. If they are not, then they should not be bred! So many times we look at a pedigree or an individual or their competition record and expect they will pass on these traits, which perhaps they should. However, not every lovely individual that has a pedigree or show record will also be prepotent or consistent. The SO can't just blame the mare owners or mares. Of course, you would like to breed to quality mares that will enhance what the stallion brings to the table and the mare is a HUGE component, no doubt. However, the stallion owner can set a criteria for the mares and still keep the stud fee down and reserve the right to turn down a mare in a tactful way by way of the criteria. I wonder if the sport industry will ever reach a point as the Thoroughbred industry has, where there will be some sort of clearinghouse or agents who will represent a contingent of stallions and offer reduced fees or present the SO with "offers". These stallions are owned mostly by syndicates who sell their shares and seasons, but it's an interesting concept. Just because you pay a high stud fee does not insure the mare is great quality, it just means the owner can afford it. And, a super quality mare may not produce it -- even though it does improve the odds. "Matching" stallions and mares is very important and I'm not sure that is effectively done many times.
                                PSG

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                                • #56
                                  Yes, Carosello, there are always some people who will throw money away, but the fact is that MOST people with lesser-quality mares are looking for bargains, whereas many people who have spent the money for a high quality mares are more willing to spend a bit more money on a stud fee. This is not to say that people with high quality mares don't also love a bargain - as some of you have aptly pointed out - but in general, people that have a good amount of money invested in high quality mares are far less likely to balk at spending a bit more on their breeding programs. I totally understand why some of you opted for frozen semen from stallions based in Europe - heck, I looked into using frozen myself this year - but frozen isn't an option for some mares, or some mare owners.

                                  Again, the OP was asking about why some stallions are priced over the $1000 - $1200 range she prefers. I thought it might be helpful to express the point of view of one particular stallion owner. Also, this stallion owner bought her horse primarily to compete, and the breeding end of the business is secondary to her main objective. She is not interested in breeding him to everything that comes down the pike, so she is using his stud fee as a sort of filter to automatically weed out a lot of requests. Is she missing out on some really good quality mares? Of course she is! But she is also not having to turn down a plethora of lesser-quality mares. Her strategy is so far working the way she hoped it would.

                                  Edited to add: Yes, she has had some inquiries from people with lesser-quality mares, which she has turned down.

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                                  • #57
                                    Of course, the other side of the coin is that some mare owners buy the cheapest mare they can and expect the stallion to fix everything that is wrong with her. Since their original criteria is price, some of them believe that the more expensive a stallion, the better and so will breed their junk mare to a very expensive stallion hoping/expecting to get a great foal. Doesn't work that way!

                                    I would rather have a (quality) MMB mare who produces Premium offspring consistently than have a Premium mare who can't produce a Premium foal.
                                    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
                                    Now apparently completely invisible!

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                                    • #58
                                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by okggo:
                                      In my stallion shopping, I looked for stallions that sired high quality foals out of mediocre mares and high quality mares. To me, that is a HUGE testament to the stallion and his abilities to reproduce himself and improve upon the mare.
                                      Since a lot of small time breeders have TB mares that are "average janes," seeing an amazing foal by the mares side speaks wonders for the stallion.
                                      Stallions that you can cross with anything and still have a nice quality foal are of the highest regard IMHO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                      EXACTLY!!! Stallions that can produce excellent quality foals regardless of the mare, are, in my opinion, the ones to be sought after. When I look at a stallion's offspring and the foals are only out of top quality mares, it doesn't tell me if the stallion is the one that is contributing...However, if you see top quality offspring out of mediocre mares, THAT says something!

                                      Kathy St.Martin
                                      Mannuscript Farm
                                      Home of the Oldenburg stallions, Mannhattan and Waterford
                                      http://www.mannuscriptfarm.com
                                      Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
                                      Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

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                                      • #59
                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sporthorse South:
                                        Yes, Carosello, there are always some people who will throw money away, but the fact is that MOST people with lesser-quality mares are looking for bargains, whereas many people who have spent the money for a high quality mares are more willing to spend a bit more money on a stud fee. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        I don't agree with that statement at all. What I see a LOT of is that mare owners with lesser quality mares are often trying to breeding "up". They've gone as far as they can with their mare and she is a much loved part of their family...They want to try and produce a foal that they can continue up the ranks on, past what the mare is able to do. It's a one time breeding, generally for themselves and with no intention of marketing the foal for resale, but to have a riding companion that can perform past what the mare is able to do.

                                        I would say that probalby 75% of the breedings I get are from mare owners who are planning on breeding one time, for themselves. When mare owners ask what my stallions can improve on, I tell them...honestly. I KNOW what their abilities are because they have been crossed on a wide variety of mares...not just the very best mares out there. Sure it would be wonderful to say that my stallions have produced nothing but premium offspring...but I can say that my stallions have produced ALL of their premium offspring out of non-premium mares...and right now, Mannhattan is producing almost 50% premium foals I think that statement speaks more about his ability to improve anyway...

                                        Kathy St.Martin
                                        Mannuscript Farm
                                        Home of the Oldenburg stallion, Mannhattan
                                        http://www.mannuscriptfarm.com
                                        Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
                                        Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

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                                        • #60
                                          Kathy- you just described me to a T!

                                          Also, there is no guarantee if you have a premium mare that it will produce a nice foal- breeding is still a crap shoot. It can be born with some kind of birth defect, etc. etc. But a stallion with NICE offspring on the ground by all kinds of mares, increases the odds in your favor.

                                          I'm just giving my perspective on this as a person who is not involved with the inspections, the scoring, the testing, and other nuances of breeding. So to me a "high quality" mare doesn't mean anything other than it's probably nice mare that I'm sure I couldn't afford. But I personally think I have a high quality mare in her own regard. I would be more appreciative if a stallion owner looked at my mare and said I don't think my stallion would be a good match b/c of x,y, and z rather than just hiking up the stud fees trying to filter the mares that way.
                                          Celtic Pride Farm
                                          www.celticpridefarm.com
                                          Become a fan on Facebook!

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