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Would you breed a mare that is a roarer?

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  • Would you breed a mare that is a roarer?

    I have a friend with a top quality imported dressage mare with top bloodlines that is a roarer. She's winning in her first shows with big scores at 1st level schooling 3rd at home at 5 yrs. Roaring is not hindering her working at all but not sure about her as future broodmare. She'd like to keep her but may choose to sell her as riding horse instead due to this issue. No one can be sure if it is passed on or not. Anyone with any experience with this?
    Producing horses with gentle minds & brilliant movement!
    www.whitfieldfarm.shutterfly.com

  • #2
    i do not have any personal experience with it, however, it does seem to be a very heritable trait when present in a parent in TB's. If it was due to a physical injury (ie choke or??), I'd go ahead and breed, but nix the idea of breeding her if it was not from some sort of injury. I am sure there are plenty of cases where it was not passed on, but I don't believe I would chance it.

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    • #3
      If my memory is correct, wasn't Brentina a roarer? If so, it obviously didn't hinder her show career (grin)......
      River Oaks Farm - home of the Elite Book Friesian Sporthorse Grand Prix dressage stallion Lexington - sire of four consecutive FSA National Inspection Champions. Endorsing the FSA.

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      • #4
        There are surgical corrections.

        You can try one of the several surgical corrections to result in a useful performance mare. I would not breed such a mare unless I knew for sure the cause was a serious infection as It is believed to be heritable. Even if caused by an infection I would suspect that she inherited a tendency to become a roarer. I have known horses who were significantly hindered by their roaring and they had much less endurance because of it. I have known horses to pass right out due to an airway collapse blocking their ability to breath. PatO

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        • #5
          It is quite a simple surgical fix ..............which is probable performed daily on many TBs at most surgical facilities.

          BTW - I remember seeing some research somewhere that a percentage of roaring is believed to be related to being started early. As in, too early. Thus a higher percentage in TBs which are commonly started at 18mos.
          Holly
          www.ironhorsefrm.com
          Oldenburg foals and young prospects
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          • #6
            Originally posted by RiverOaksFarm View Post
            If my memory is correct, wasn't Brentina a roarer? If so, it obviously didn't hinder her show career (grin)......
            Yes. And it hindered her sufficiently that despite the risk she underwent surgery to correct the condition.

            I would not breed her if the condition is thought to be heritable. Roaring is considered to be an unsoundness.
            Roseknoll Sporthorses
            www.roseknoll.net

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            • #7
              Brentina was a roarer, was surgically corrected and already has a foal or 2 on the ground and, AFAIK, has been rebred once or twice. I guess none of you would take a chance on her foals then.
              Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
              Now apparently completely invisible!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Tiki View Post
                Brentina was a roarer, was surgically corrected and already has a foal or 2 on the ground and, AFAIK, has been rebred once or twice. I guess none of you would take a chance on her foals then.
                Agreed.

                There is surgery for roaring. Like any surgery there are risks, but roarer surgery is pretty common with a high success rate AFAIK. Brentina had the surgery and went on to the Olympics, that's a pretty good argument that roaring isn't career ending. It wouldn't stop me from breeding a nice mare any more than it stopped Brentina's owners. Nobody knows statistics on how heritable it is. Even if an offspring was a roarer you could have the surgery done if necessary (although many roarers never have surgery.) It's not like we're talking about breeding race horses

                I knew of someone with an FEI level warmblood stallion who was a roarer and had had the surgery. You'd never know he'd been a roarer. She'd bred him to a handful of mares and most of his kids were already going under saddle, none were roarers. (Anecdotal yes, but I'm tossing it out there anyhow)

                Nearly all other health and conformation flaws I wouldn't risk breeding, but this is a flaw which is fixable if (and it's a big if) the foal even inherits it in the first place.

                On second thought, OP your friend's mare is probably garbage and I will give her $1 for her. Joking aside, if she's from top blood lines, I wonder how that contributes to the heritability argument or the argument of not breeding roarers. If it's heritable, she got it from somewhere, so with top bloodlines does this mean some other horses in the top sport gene pool are also roarers? (I'm thinking "yes".)
                "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns

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                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Thanks everyone!
                  Producing horses with gentle minds & brilliant movement!
                  www.whitfieldfarm.shutterfly.com

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                  • #10
                    Get a scope and if its only on the left side then it is a damaged nerve problem and not anything heritable. If she is paralyzed on both sides that is a different story.
                    McDowell Racing Stables

                    Home Away From Home

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                    • #11
                      Unless I am very confused, roarers are not eligible for SPS status in VhW. Can someone clarify for me?
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                      • #12
                        I know of one stallion that was a roarer that recently was sold through the Hanoverian stallion auction in Germany without disclosing the condition (apparently it was not obvious at the time of sale). When the buyer found out, the auction agreed to void the sale immediately because they did consider it to be a serious unsoundness and a defect that was not acceptable for a breeding stallion.

                        As for Brentina, she won a bronze medal at the Olympics and was World Champion. I was not aware the mare in question was comparable. In any event, Brentina's roaring condition did hinder her abilities and that is why she had to have surgery.

                        Truly, sometimes I wonder why people ask questions like this on this board. Is it a good idea to breed a mare with an unsoundness? Not if it is heritable. Do the risks outweigh the benefits? Like anything else, that depends. And really there is no way to gauge that with the limited information available here.
                        Roseknoll Sporthorses
                        www.roseknoll.net

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                        • #13
                          My friend did the surgery on her roarer at U of M. It appeared to work at first, but I saw him at a show last weekend and when in work he was noticably labored/roaring again.

                          I felt bad for him. He's also stiff in his neck (not sure if that is related to his condition or not).

                          I wouldn't want to buy a foal that would have an increased chance of roaring, as I've seen the surgery not work.
                          DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/

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                          • #14
                            Unless I am very confused, roarers are not eligible for SPS status in VhW. Can someone clarify for me?

                            You are correct. In order for mares to achieve SPS or Elite status from the H verband they (along with other requirements) must not be roarers.
                            www.svhanoverians.com

                            "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

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                            • #15
                              i have seen horses that have had the surgery that were not very, shall we say, attractive afterwards. ie: the horses would have green frothy green slime streaming out of the nose, and if i remember coughed too.

                              not sure if this is a failed surgery or?

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                              • #16
                                Actually tie back or lasering, while common, is not always successful. For the horses where it is unsuccessful, you've set them up for scartissue to build up and cause the breathing to be WORSE.
                                We've had lots and lots of horses who were either roarers (left hemiplagia) or had had surgery (tie back or laser). More often than not, these horses had recurring issues with choking. Several have been euthanized because of worsening conditions that were no longer surgically repairable.
                                So no, I would not breed something that was a roarer (left OR right) as I don't know enough as to whether or not it's heritable.

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                                • #17
                                  Roaring, unless very marked, seldom affects dressage performance. I know of a roarer who competed very successfully to Preliminary level eventing. I think at Advanced, the roaring might be an issue, as it would be for race horses.
                                  Sunny Days Hanoverians
                                  http://www.sunnydayshanoverians.com

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by FairWeather View Post
                                    Actually tie back or lasering, while common, is not always successful. For the horses where it is unsuccessful, you've set them up for scartissue to build up and cause the breathing to be WORSE.
                                    We've had lots and lots of horses who were either roarers (left hemiplagia) or had had surgery (tie back or laser). More often than not, these horses had recurring issues with choking. Several have been euthanized because of worsening conditions that were no longer surgically repairable.
                                    So no, I would not breed something that was a roarer (left OR right) as I don't know enough as to whether or not it's heritable.
                                    Something I did not know, but found out you should delay surgery until horse is at least 4 years of age for a better chance of success. The younger they are the more chances for scar tissue and problems to arise. I found this out at a TB breedeers symposium a couple of years ago when the subject of roaring came up. FWIW, the panel thought it a very bad idea to be breeding a mare that was a roarer. No mentions of the stallions but that's treading in tricky water to attack SO's at an Irish TB breeders synposium.

                                    Terri
                                    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                                    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Equilibrium View Post
                                      Something I did not know, but found out you should delay surgery until horse is at least 4 years of age for a better chance of success. The younger they are the more chances for scar tissue and problems to arise. I found this out at a TB breedeers symposium a couple of years ago when the subject of roaring came up. FWIW, the panel thought it a very bad idea to be breeding a mare that was a roarer. No mentions of the stallions but that's treading in tricky water to attack SO's at an Irish TB breeders synposium.

                                      Terri
                                      That's interesting. Just as an FYI, the roarer I referred to was at least 8 years old.

                                      It is the most awful sounding thing when they are in work. I have to wonder if it hurts?
                                      DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/

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                                      • #20
                                        no, true roaring should not cause pain, but lots of breathing issues can cause anxiety or unsteadiness in the bridle if the horse feels it cannot get enough air.
                                        the sound is just caused by wind crossing over the flap that is paralyzed, much like a whistle.

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