• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

So why exactly DON'T the "American" Registries...

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • So why exactly DON'T the "American" Registries...

    accept American blood?

    I'm talking AWS & AWR.

    I know both take it in the lower books. I also believe neither take it in the highest/approved for breeding book, correct?

    Does anyone else see the irony?
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

  • #2
    What do you mean by "American blood"?
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

    Comment


    • #3
      I believe she is talking about historically "american" breeds of horses, i.e. QH's, Saddlebreds, Morgans etc. Honestly I think it is becuase it is not what the "popular" sporthorse market wants! And the fact they have "warmblood" in their name, of which none of our historically "american" breeds really fits into this category. I think an "American Sporthorse" registry is LONG overdue that would inspect and set up studbooks for truely AMERICAN breeds of sport type horses!
      www.shawneeacres.net

      Comment


      • #4
        I don't think that is true.

        AWS; http://www.americanwarmblood.org/requirements/index.htm
        AWR; http://www.americanwarmblood.com/rul.../rule_book.pdf
        ... _. ._ .._. .._

        Comment


        • #5
          If that's the case, then I understand, IF their intent is to try to get to a type of horse akin to the European WBs.

          The problem is they've painted a pretty black and white picture, when it's not always that black and white. There is a very clear delineation, at least from what little I know about the ASBs, between those bred for the "fire breathing dragon" market and those bred for the sporthorse market. There is a very different type of QH depending on whether he's 31/32nds TB, or whether he's a registered Foundation QH.

          To blanketly throw out all ASBs, and all QHs, just because of that label, does them no service at all.

          The REAL problem with AWS and AWR is they have no apparent direction in actually building a sporthorse that is unique to the US. Until they do, I agree, they are not a great place to be.
          ______________________________
          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by JB View Post
            If that's the case, then I understand, IF their intent is to try to get to a type of horse akin to the European WBs.

            The problem is they've painted a pretty black and white picture, when it's not always that black and white. There is a very clear delineation, at least from what little I know about the ASBs, between those bred for the "fire breathing dragon" market and those bred for the sporthorse market. There is a very different type of QH depending on whether he's 31/32nds TB, or whether he's a registered Foundation QH.

            To blanketly throw out all ASBs, and all QHs, just because of that label, does them no service at all.

            The REAL problem with AWS and AWR is they have no apparent direction in actually building a sporthorse that is unique to the US. Until they do, I agree, they are not a great place to be.
            Hence my "Suggestion" of an "American Sport Horse" registry. Throw out the word "Warmblood", inspect and approve AMERICAN breeds only (including the american TB) and allow crosses between aproved, insected horses to create a "modern" sporthorse type from our own breeds. I have an appaloosa SPORT HORSE. Yes, he is registered with ApHC but is ANYTHING BUT The typical "QH with spots (or without as so many of them are now!)". He is a sport type horse, moves like a sporthorse, is uphill build and does not have the "typical" appaloosa/QH type bloodlines. He won't "win" in the app showring due to this, but has done quite well (with limited showing) in eventing and dressage, as well as a few hunter and jumper shows. Now that I (hopefully!) have more time to campaign him he is going back to the showring. I would love to see a studbook established that would recognize him, and others like him, regardless of their "breed" as sport horses that can be used to develop a distinctly "American" horse for sport
            www.shawneeacres.net

            Comment


            • #7
              We've talked about needing a true American Sport Horse Registry for years...a place where truly American breeds are not discriminated against and where horses of various American breeds purpose bred for sport can be recorded.

              Just think of what a marketing tool it could be for those of us trying to get our American horses to where buyers know to look. That thread on dressage recently about what could you get under $10k for example. We have so many nice horses here but people have such a hard time looking for American breeds that are purpose bred for sport. Even if we did nothing more than found a marketing group of some sort???

              The market sucks so bad right now that maybe if enough people would put aside their differences perhaps we could make something happen for once for American horses (and I'm not talking about WB's born in America) but breeds developed right here on this continent.

              Comment


              • #8
                Nay sayer!

                I would LOVE to not have to take my horses to an inspection as a part of the...now you are allowed to breed...process. I hate it. I think it is restraint of trade. It is political. It is insulting. At a time we have less and less money we have the added cost of inspection. In the beginning the Europeans were more than a little puzzled why we wanted them to come over and pass fail our horses. Those funny Americans. Now they have figured out how to make more money...how to make this process work for them. I worked and studied my whole life to give the decision of where my breeding program will go to someone else. Yet we are not involved in the decisions of where the warmblood will go...it's like taxation without representation. Grrr. Miss Pat.

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Columbus! Well said!!!

                  yes, I am meaning: Morgan, QH, Appaloosa, ASB, Colonial Spanish, APHA, etc. (I know I am forgetting some, forgive me!)

                  To blanketly throw out all ASBs, and all QHs, just because of that label, does them no service at all.

                  The REAL problem with AWS and AWR is they have no apparent direction in actually building a sporthorse that is unique to the US. Until they do, I agree, they are not a great place to be.
                  Very well said.

                  I am sure we'll be accused of trying to reinvent the wheel, but there are those of us with American breeds who are excellent Sporthorse prospects. Shawnee is a great case in point. She should NEVER have to masquerade her guy as anything but what he is--a well bred, *specifically* bred APPALOOSA. But many folks would think that he should have to somehow be approved Knabstrupper or some such to be 'viable.'

                  My stallion is 1/16ths ASB. Meg Hamilton LOVES him and said "This is the kind of stallion you see in Europe for breed improvement." And yet, he only squeaked into RPSI Book I because of a quirk--his 1/16th ASB happened to show as "Pinto" on his IAHA reg papers. I'm grateful... but... also loathe to keep giving that kind of $$$ every year to a German registry. (he is not current--I'm not trying to 'fake' anything.)

                  I see and know of some fabulous Saddlebreds, Morgans, Paints (yes APHA, not "pintos") and Colonial Spanish horses who could contribute SO MUCH to the Sporthorse world. Yet to breed them to their own lines would actually be a disservice--going backwards *away* from sporthorse characteristics. Yet to continue to breed them for Sporthorse ventures... there are few places to register and track them.

                  Sorry... just having a bad night here I guess. I answered another post about a lovely ASB mare, and thought what a shame it is that she needs to be "Euro-ed" in order for her foals to be considered...
                  InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                  Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have mixed feelings about the inspection process. On one hand, its NOT something that "we" american breed people are used to, but on the other look at how the breeds we love have degraded/morphed over the years into something other than what they were orginally intended to be. I have ntohing against the "breed" people breeding what they want, but to have another venue for us that want to preserve a different, better (in our opinion) and more "true" standard then I feel that we would need to have inspections of some sort. Actually, it used to be that many breeds DID require an inspector. This is true of the QH breed, if you wanted to advance an appendix registered horse from the appendix registry to the permanent registry, you had to have an inspector inspect the horse first. THis was true of several american breeds that had "temporary" books. Now that has gone by the wayside and anything can be bred, and some of what I have seen as "breeding stock" is horrifying! Of course, i am also a person that does NOT like government rules and regulations on free trade, so I have a real issue battling both sides of the inspection issue!
                    www.shawneeacres.net

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by columbus View Post
                      I would LOVE to not have to take my horses to an inspection as a part of the...now you are allowed to breed...process. I hate it. I think it is restraint of trade. It is political. It is insulting. At a time we have less and less money we have the added cost of inspection. In the beginning the Europeans were more than a little puzzled why we wanted them to come over and pass fail our horses. Those funny Americans. Now they have figured out how to make more money...how to make this process work for them. I worked and studied my whole life to give the decision of where my breeding program will go to someone else. Yet we are not involved in the decisions of where the warmblood will go...it's like taxation without representation. Grrr. Miss Pat.
                      No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to inspect your horses. But if you want to register your horses as Hanoverians, for instance, you have to be willing to play by Hanoverian rules. Ditto for Oldenburg, KWPN, Westphalian, etc. If you don't want to have to take your horses to an inspection, chose a registry that doesn't require inspection. Or don't register them (although God knows, I am not a fan of unregistered horses).

                      It is like joining a club - you have to agree to abide by the club rules. People usually want to join a club or organization because they perceive there is some benefit to being a member - and it is the organization's rules and policies that have made it what it is. Why should registries throw out the very policies that made them successful?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by columbus View Post
                        I would LOVE to not have to take my horses to an inspection as a part of the...now you are allowed to breed...process. I hate it.
                        Then don't. Nobody forces you to. It's not a a requirement for you to breed. But if you want to then register those offspring with certain registries, it DOES become a requirement. It's a matter of "play by the rules or get out of the sandbox"

                        I think it is restraint of trade. It is political. It is insulting.
                        Sure it's political - all entities of any size eventually become political to some extent. The AQHA and the JC are extremely political, despite having ZERO inspection process. It's their politics which still allow HYPP horses to be registered, and why AI is not allowed for a JC TB.

                        I can't see how it's insulting at all. If your horse doesn't meet their standards, then either the horse shows a failure of that breeding, or you're looking at the wrong registry. Their rules, you don't have to play.

                        At a time we have less and less money we have the added cost of inspection.
                        Maybe it should then be a time of less breeding

                        In the beginning the Europeans were more than a little puzzled why we wanted them to come over and pass fail our horses. Those funny Americans.
                        Perhaps it was because we didn't have the people qualified to to the inspections ourselves. I find it hard to believe they were really puzzled.

                        Now they have figured out how to make more money...how to make this process work for them.
                        Darn that capitalistic mentality!

                        I worked and studied my whole life to give the decision of where my breeding program will go to someone else. Yet we are not involved in the decisions of where the warmblood will go...it's like taxation without representation. Grrr. Miss Pat.
                        Why don't you get involved then? It is not at all like TWR. You're forced to pay taxes. You are not forced to breed, or to have your horses inspected. If you don't like that they are representing, then don't pay your "taxes". I really don't see why it's such a hard decision.

                        If you're REALLY that concerned, why aren't you lobbying with the AWS or AWR about why they are in such a stalemate with themselves?
                        ______________________________
                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          FWIW, Pintopiaffe - I just tried to look up your stallion on your website. The domain in your signature has expired.

                          "InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs" points to http://www.innisfailte.com - which isn't your website.

                          I found an Angelfire.com site for you through Google - but all the links on that site point back to http://www.innisfailte.com .

                          You may want to reclaim your domain name and get your website updated.

                          And meanwhile - I am curious to see your stallion's pedigree. Is he listed on Allbreedpedigree.com? What is his name?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            [QUOTE=pintopiaffe;4992254


                            My stallion is 1/16ths ASB. Meg Hamilton LOVES him and said "This is the kind of stallion you see in Europe for breed improvement." And yet, he only squeaked into RPSI Book I because of a quirk--his 1/16th ASB happened to show as "Pinto" on his IAHA reg papers. I'm grateful... but... also loathe to keep giving that kind of $$$ every year to a German registry. (he is not current--I'm not trying to 'fake' anything.)

                            .[/QUOTE]

                            AWS and AWR aew members of WBFSH, they are breeding warmbloods. As such, they need to use the same standards as other WB registries to grant breeding approval.

                            Would you mind providing the name of your stallion and what year he was is RPSI Book I ? Curious because I don't believe he would have been eligible given the limited pedigree info you provided. I have their year books going back a ways and don't see anything that sounds similar.
                            Book II is something else. Those stallions are not approved for breeding.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by columbus View Post
                              I would LOVE to not have to take my horses to an inspection as a part of the...now you are allowed to breed...process. I hate it. I think it is restraint of trade. It is political. It is insulting. At a time we have less and less money we have the added cost of inspection. In the beginning the Europeans were more than a little puzzled why we wanted them to come over and pass fail our horses. Those funny Americans. Now they have figured out how to make more money...how to make this process work for them. I worked and studied my whole life to give the decision of where my breeding program will go to someone else. Yet we are not involved in the decisions of where the warmblood will go...it's like taxation without representation. Grrr. Miss Pat.
                              No no no! THis is the typical American mentality that hoarders use.........but it's a free country.....I can breed if I waaaaaant toooooo! Waaaaaaa! Well yes, it is America and you can breed if you want to, but don't expect to get top $ for your youngsters if they aren't registered and yes it is America and you don't have to do that either!

                              If you have a registry that doesn't inspect, you get every end of the spectrum in terms of quality. Is it a perfect system? of course not, but given the choice between a horse who has two approved parents and a horse that may have been bred from the very best of his breed or the very worst (and I have to figure it out on my own????)...........I'm going with the inspected horse.
                              Holly
                              www.ironhorsefrm.com
                              Oldenburg foals and young prospects
                              LIKE us on Facebook!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                                FWIW, Pintopiaffe - I just tried to look up your stallion on your website. The domain in your signature has expired.

                                And meanwhile - I am curious to see your stallion's pedigree. Is he listed on Allbreedpedigree.com? What is his name?
                                http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/lord+majikjaz

                                He was not in RPSI Stallion Book I. He was in RPSI Pony Book I.
                                Looks like for 2007 and 2008. If I'm reading the Pony Book stuff correctly he would have needed to complete performance requirements to maintain Pony Book approval.
                                Pony Book allows a broader range of breeds.

                                All Breed doesn't indcate any ASB blood. It does indicate Pinto/Arab cross blood in the 4th generation.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  My stallion is Lord Majikjaz. He's in allbreed.

                                  He was approved in 2006, so is in the following yearbook, and the one after. He's in the SportPony book. I only kept him active for those two years. It is a lot of money that wasn't really forwarding my program.

                                  Thanks for the website heads-up. I actually have a new host and have been unable to transfer the site. I didn't owe any money, so I don't know why I can't get my domain back. Working on it. I built the whole thing in plain HTML. I don't have the software to redo from scratch, and no way I'm redoing HTML again. The damn domain was bought by someone in Australia. You have to call to deal with them. That ain't happenin' any time soon...
                                  InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                  Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    The difference is what we are talking more about here is 1st/2nd level generation crosses, not true warmbloods who have been carefully blended for hundreds of years for a specific purpose.


                                    Originally posted by Columbus
                                    I would LOVE to not have to take my horses to an inspection as a part of the...now you are allowed to breed...process. I hate it. I think it is restraint of trade. It is political. It is insulting. At a time we have less and less money we have the added cost of inspection. In the beginning the Europeans were more than a little puzzled why we wanted them to come over and pass fail our horses. Those funny Americans. Now they have figured out how to make more money...how to make this process work for them. I worked and studied my whole life to give the decision of where my breeding program will go to someone else. Yet we are not involved in the decisions of where the warmblood will go...it's like taxation without representation. Grrr. Miss Pat.
                                    Because there are still too many people who don't care and haven't researched breeding some old draft they found down the road to a TB they found at an auction and calling it a warmblood.

                                    It may be political and insulting, but until people stop trying to label every cross/mutt a WB only to slap a huge price tag on it without even the value of a performance record on the sire or the dam, it's still a neccessary evil IMHO.

                                    And, as mentioned above, until these American sporthorse/wb type registries get thier head out of thier butts and actually COMMIT to a STANDAND of quality or performance, you better believe I'm going to spend my money on horses who come from a proven system that works - and the Europeans have that nailed down much better then we do in many cases.

                                    This is not to say there are NO good American horses. I also had an Appaloosa mare several years back who could very well be considered a sport horse by both conformation and performance..... they are out there, indeed. But... there are already venues for such horses - in this case the App Sporthorse Reg. (Can't remember the specific name of it).

                                    We don't have a "TB Sporthorse Registry" but there are certainly TB breeders breeding for sport vs. racing so what is holding back other 'would be "American breed" sporthorse breeders?
                                    Concordia means "Harmony" in Latin.
                                    Full Time Dressage Addict

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      It's not even about whether it's a Warmblood or a "warmblood", it's about the inspection process (which is not specific to WBs, though it's not very common either) and trying to improve the breed as an organization, rather than leaving it up to anybody with horses with a uterus or testicles.

                                      As mentioned, registries with no "inspection" process other than inspecting that both parents are also registered with that org has far more inferior horses than those worthy of breeding, let alone the cream of the crop breed-worthy.

                                      IMVHO, having a visual inspection process, let alone the breeding approval process, which in itself adds value to the stallion, puts stud fees at a high enough level that you get rid of the generic backyard breeder who just wants a piece of his beloved mare and likes your pretty stallion. SOs have a responsibility too, and again IMVHO if a SO is going through the time and $$ to have the stallion approved, they are not likely to just allow any ol' MO breed to their boy, because that dilutes the value of the stallion, since as we all know it's the stallion's total fault for all inferior get on the ground
                                      ______________________________
                                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Both registries will take "American" breeds if they meet the qualification criteria. You are saying that they DON'T. That does not mean that they WON'T. Have you presented any horses to the registries mentioned ? If you are breeding sport horse types, then there is no reason that they should not be accepted, unless of course you are not breeding acceptable stock.
                                        ... _. ._ .._. .._

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X