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What can you tell me about this pedigree? UPDATE: bone chip

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  • What can you tell me about this pedigree? UPDATE: bone chip

    Here is the pedigree of a fellow that is under consideration for becoming a hunter/dressage retraining project. Not for resale.


    What can you tell me about his lineage? Do they tend to have good minds? And has anyone here actually seen this guy in person - PM me if you have and want to share!

    "A Maximum Buzz"
    2002 16.2ish Bay Gelding
    currently racing in the PNW

  • #2
    AP Indy and Ack Ack tend to be fairly to very athletic and Green Dancer horses, in my experience, are DOLLS to work around.
    "Gallop as if you were to die tomorrow, jump as if you were to live forever."


    • #3
      Green Dancer appears in quite a few Selle Francais pedigrees. The French clearly think he produces sport horses.

      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


      • Original Poster

        Thanks very much, I have no clue about bloodlines, which means all your input will help us decide if we should go down and take a look at this fellow. He is owned by a friend and would be a giveaway of sorts.


        • #5
          Oooh - agree with the other posters! LOVE the Green Dancer and Ack Ack connections here for hunter or eventing in some cases. Had a GORGEOUS Green Dancer that can jump the moon and is very people orientated. Here is his pedigree, http://www.pedigreequery.com/fabulous+impulse and here are his pictures http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...ous%20Impulse/ - one of him jumping, but it doesn't do him justice. I have sold him so I'm hoping to see him show this winter under his new owner.

          My best broodmare has My Babu a little closer up in her pedigree (Sire of Missy Baba who is dam of Raja Baba) - love that connection and she is such a sweet, substantial mare...


          • #6
            Originally posted by costco_muffins View Post
            Thanks very much, I have no clue about bloodlines, which means all your input will help us decide if we should go down and take a look at this fellow. He is owned by a friend and would be a giveaway of sorts.
            I agree that it looks like he's got some nice sporthorse influences. I'd suggest taking a look at him. As much as I love TB's and follow breeding, I agree with such trainers as Wayne Lukas and Bob Baffert who say "look for an athlete first." Make the decision based on what you see. Is he straight and balanced? Does he has a nice attitude? Does he have the kind of personality that you want to work with? Answer those questions and if the answer is yes, don't let pedigree issues block you. The fact is that all TB's are bred to be athletes. If you go back a few generations they all have blue blood. You're not going to be riding/training or showing the papers!

            have fun, keep us posted on your decision.
            F O.B
            Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
            Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique


            • Original Poster

              witherbee - Your fellow is gorgeous! Hopefully Max will be as good looking and athletic.

              He is owned by an old friend of mine who gives away his racehorses when they are ready to come off the track. Gives them to the best home, not the highest bidder. I told him what I wanted a horse for - local hunters up to 3' and dressage - and he said "Max would LOVE that!" Apparently he is coming 6, bay, 16.2ish and a gelding. We know nothing else about him except that he won a few races in 2006 and has been slowly moving down in ranks at the local track, a sure sign that he wants to become a hunter!

              His owner is going to take a look at him in the next week and decide if he is ready to pass Max on to a new home. If he does want to give him away, we are getting in the car and heading to Portland to take a look at him... maybe with a trailer in tow!

              I only hope that he is decently correct and has a good mind. Fingers crossed!


              • Original Poster

                Got the news today that Max has a chip in one knee. Owners just had him x-rayed and wanted to share all the details with us before we made a decision...

                Now comes the hard part... do we go see him or back out?? Definitely don't want to fall in love with a horse that isn't able to do his job, but also don't want to rule out a horse that could be nice in the future. $1800, 6 months layup. Oy.


                • #9
                  Heck, if he's free, and the surgery will be $1800 and six months off, and he's got a good mind and nice conformation (i.e would you take him without the chip), I'd do it.

                  He's still going to be cheap enough, and you'll be giving him a chance for a good new home.
                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                  Thread killer Extraordinaire


                  • #10
                    My "free horse" with a chip turned out nicely after surgery -- but the handwalking phase is a big commitment of time - every day for six weeks - and will test you and the horse in every way. Also, even arthroscopic surgery is not without risk (as in the case of the Tin Man, coming out of anaesthesia can be the most dangerous time). If he has been racing with the chip a while it could have done some damage inside the joint (you said he had been slipping down the ranks, I think) and while he should be serviceably sound, he might not be a top competition prospect. So you have to accept the risks as well as the cost.

                    I already had a commitment to my horse, so I didn't have to make this kind of choice, fortunately.

                    I would think hard about whether you are really up to it -- because if you go see him, your heart will likely become involved and this is a decision to make with your head.

                    If you do decide to go for it, kudos to you.
                    Publisher, http://www.endurance-101.com
                    Blog: http://blog.seattlepi.com/horsebytes/


                    • #11
                      Don't come over here much (eventer), but just wanted to say my now 7yo OTTB from portland meadows has a chip in his knee. He's been training and competing completely sound on it for two years, schooled up to 3'9", galloped at the beach, no problems. I'm conscientious about what he does and how much, but he's been great.

                      Good luck! I can't wait for my next one!


                      • Original Poster

                        We are getting the x-rays tomorrow, and can see him this weekend... plus talk to the vets.

                        Apparently he was let down after Emerald due to some soreness, turned out to pasture to rest, is now completely sound and happy in the field (running, bucking, etc). When we mentioned that we might have a home for him the owner took x-rays of his legs to determine what to do - either stick him back in training (trainer's vote) or retire him to a pleasure home (owner's vote). The bone chip lets him retire! Fingers crossed for a horse who DOESN'T need surgery.

                        His last race was August 10th. And I will post some photos if we go down to see him!


                        • #13
                          I'm not sure who owns this horse now, but if you PM me I will put you in touch with his breeder if they're not still the same. There is a gal on this board that has worked with a lot of the Matricules as well.

                          I LOVE the few Matricule's that I've been around, great minds, very athletic, nice to be around. IMO he's a very underated sire in the NW.

                          I bought a mare with a chip at the age of 5, showed her at third level dressage. Her hocks gave out long before her knees. Only at 22, did she show signs of ever having a knee injury.


                          • Original Poster

                            If you know some Matricules, then you might have heard of this guy... I think that he is the leading progeny of Matricule, won four races in 2006 and over 26K. Not tons, but not bad for a Washington bred!


                            • Original Poster

                              Heading to Enumclaw on Sunday to visit Max - he is sound on the knee now, so I will hop on him if he is looking and acting okay! Pictures sure to follow.

                              If we don't take him there are several other people that have asked Owner about him, so he will definitely be going to a loving home, whatever we decide.


                              • #16
                                I'm coming to this late, but I would like to share my experiences with chips.

                                I have purchased two mare off the track and both had fetlock chips. Both were sound at the time of purchase. Ya-ya, the first mare, went lame about a year later, and the chips had worn through the cartilage. I spent several thousand trying to get her sound and never did. Considering the damage in her joints, it was amazing that she got sound enough to just be a pasture pet. I gave her away as a broodmare.

                                Blush, the second mare, was radiographed at the track before I bought her. Vet said no chips, but only did one or two views. Three years later she went off. We went to CSU where a chip was discovered. It was in a very atypical place and the vets did believe she had it since racing. When they went in to remove the chip, they discovered two depo-deposits--areas of calcified cartilage, often caused by depo-medrol injections. One had healthy cartilage underneath, one had failing bone that had to be debrided. Blush remained very sore in the joint, even after HA injections and is now sound after IRAP. I have no idea how long she will stay sound but don't have high hopes. This year my insurance has paid me over $5k, so that gives you an idea of how much I've spent...

                                Chips do not always end well, as the previous experiences here seem to indicate. Given my experiences, I would absolutely NOT screw around with a horse that is known to have chips ever again. It can be absolutely heartbreaking.

                                Good luck with whatever you decide.


                                • #17

                                  Well over a year after turning down a WONDERFUL OTTB by Dynaformer, your post has finally justified what I knew in my heart. I leased him for two months before vetting him out and he ended up having a large bone chip in his fetlock. He flexed sound, which surprised the vet since he had 42 starts. He actually beat Colonial Colony back in the day. Xrays proved otherwise.

                                  Thanks for your detailed post. I've struggled with my decision this entire time.
                                  Bit n' Bridle Equestrian Shop - Apparel and gifts for horse lovers.

                                  Lindsay Abel Equine Photography


                                  • #18
                                    I "know" this horse's breeder as well--she's on my racehorse list. Truly a small world.
                                    Life would be infinitely better if pinatas suddenly appeared throughout the day.


                                    • #19
                                      re: chip in knee

                                      It sounds as though they have been very careful with this horse. One chip in the knee, depending on the size, location etc. is very easily dealt with, even in many cases, time off and the chip will dissolve as many are just calcium deposits. If the horse was continuously run and injected with steroids you are speaking of a whole different kettle of fish. Interacticular damage, at the very least. In the ankle, I have seen bone on bone, significant arthritic changes, etc. I have had several who have had chips, opted not to do surgery and gave the horse enough time off and the matters were resolved so as to allow horses to return to a reasonable competitive career. It really all depends on the management of the horse post injury.
                                      "We, too, will be remembered not for victories or defeats in battle or in politics, but for our contribution to the human spirit." JFK