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So Frustrated! Final Update last pg! Thank You All! Got her Papers!!!

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  • So Frustrated! Final Update last pg! Thank You All! Got her Papers!!!

    I don't know what to do..
    I've been trying to register my filly since she was a weanling. Was told there was no paperwork for her or DNA on file for her sire, so I gave up.
    Then through this forim I found out there was a live foal report. and they had a forzen blood sample! So I continued with the registration process with the help of the breeder, even though it was going to cost $500 more!

    So everything had been submitted, just waiting on the DNA for the mare.
    Now I am being told even though all the DNA matched my filly, that the mare they have registered as As Is Liz is not my filles Dam. When they compared the pictures I submitted against there's it didn't match. My filles Dam has NO white. The Jockey club says that the mare they have registered as As Is Liz, has a white star!
    I called previously, and gave them the tattoo number I had and was told the mare has no white markings, we then compared cowlicks and verified that the mare was indeed As Is Liz! I'm so frustrated I don't knwo what to do anymore...

    Sorry I had to vent.. Do you all ever have this much difficulty with the Registration of your horses?? I'm going to have to go and re-read the tattoo and have a closer look at her face and cowlicks.. I really needed these papers by the end of September to show her in the TB line classes.

    Do I have any options??
    UPDATE*** So it looks like there is a cluster of small white hairs in the middle of her forehead!! We were able to get the tattoo-- Q14362
    Can anyone look that tattoo up?

    Thanks!


    Thanks
    Last edited by LivviesMom; Oct. 30, 2007, 10:06 AM. Reason: add update
    Love and Laughter - 2005 TB Mare - Boss Mare
    Foxfire Lacey - 2007 Half Welsh Superstar
    New Sensation - 1986- 2014 Love you to the moon and back

  • #2
    What paperwork exactly do you have and what is on file with the JC? A live foal report is done when a foal is born but do you or the breeder have the stallion certificate? Without that you wont be able to register the foal either. Is the stallion deceased? If not DNA will have to be done on him, a frozen blood sample is not the same as DNA (why I dont know)
    Do you not have the dam's JC papers and that is why the JC is going with swirls and marking and tattoo #? You may need to reread the tattoo or take pictures of it and send that off to the JC and see if they can ID the mare for you. I have never had problems trying to register a foal but can imagine how frustrating it can be. If you would like you can PM me and I will try to help.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Originally posted by Norcrest View Post
      What paperwork exactly do you have and what is on file with the JC? A live foal report is done when a foal is born but do you or the breeder have the stallion certificate? Without that you wont be able to register the foal either. Is the stallion deceased? If not DNA will have to be done on him, a frozen blood sample is not the same as DNA (why I dont know)
      Do you not have the dam's JC papers and that is why the JC is going with swirls and marking and tattoo #? You may need to reread the tattoo or take pictures of it and send that off to the JC and see if they can ID the mare for you. I have never had problems trying to register a foal but can imagine how frustrating it can be. If you would like you can PM me and I will try to help.
      Everything is done and submitted. Live Foal, Mares Bred, Stallion Certificate was released. The sires blood was pulled and tested. I submitted my fillies sample along with her dam. I submitted photos of the mare. I KNOW the mare is correct, we have the right mare. I don't own the mare, the breeder no longer owns her either, but I am in contact with both.
      It's just been such a long frustrating procees. When I got that phone call today I wanted to scream and cry at the same time.

      The woman who owns the mare is going to try to read the tattoo for me again.
      Thing is.. all the DNA matches! but they are saying that it is not the right mare. the mare they shows as As Is Liz apparently has a star. All of the cowlick locations match perfectly too. I'm hoping this is just a mistake...

      If you can help at all it would be GREATLY appreciated!
      Love and Laughter - 2005 TB Mare - Boss Mare
      Foxfire Lacey - 2007 Half Welsh Superstar
      New Sensation - 1986- 2014 Love you to the moon and back

      Comment


      • #4
        The DNA match should make the physical ID of the mare secondary. (The mare does have a DNA sample that's been posted to the JC - which means they did verify her parentage.)

        What did the JC advise you to do?

        **Just looked up your filly's registration status - said the only holdup to registration is DNA verification of the dam. So I'd think you just wait.

        A few years ago we had to pull hair on a Canadian-bred mare and send it in to the JC.

        Another time we bought a mare from somebody who'd mixed up their mares. THAT was fun.

        It's no picnic dealing with the JC but I've never NOT been able to register one.
        It's a uterus, not a clown car. - Sayyedati

        Comment


        • #5
          Agreed with Slewledo - not easy to deal with the JC but I've never not been able to register, even under very difficult circumstances (no DNA on dam, for example, who was in Canada for a number of years).

          Face markings not matching WILL be a problem. If I'm understanding your post correctly, sire DNA is a problem, but then Slewledo's post suggests it all comes down to verifying the dam. Is the dam Grey/Roan colored? i.e. is it possible that her color markings have changed over time? I DID have this problem once before with the JC, but ultimately they gave it up (greys change color over time...).

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            DNA is posted on both sire and dam.
            When they went to compare the photos I submitted to the ones they have, they called and said the pictures they have show a white star. But the JC also considers white hairs a star..

            My filly has roaning as she is Rabicano but the mare is SOLID chestnut. We ar going to try to re-read the tattoo, and take close ups of her face and tattoo as well..
            Love and Laughter - 2005 TB Mare - Boss Mare
            Foxfire Lacey - 2007 Half Welsh Superstar
            New Sensation - 1986- 2014 Love you to the moon and back

            Comment


            • #7
              Have you tried contacting the Thoroughbred Racing Protective Bureau?

              http://www.trpb.com/

              I do NOT have personal experience with them, but it is my understanding that they photograph horses when they tattoo them & that might throw more light on this subject. I do personally know of cases where the Jockey Club put an incorrect description of markings on registration papers.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                UPDATE!

                UPDATE*** So it looks like there is a cluster of small white hairs in the middle of her forehead!! We were able to get the tattoo-- Q14362
                Can anyone look that tattoo up?
                Love and Laughter - 2005 TB Mare - Boss Mare
                Foxfire Lacey - 2007 Half Welsh Superstar
                New Sensation - 1986- 2014 Love you to the moon and back

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'd think that would be something to contact the JC about. You're paying enough to get her registered (and they've already got your money) - they can certainly take a couple minutes and run the tattoo.
                  It's a uterus, not a clown car. - Sayyedati

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Slewdledo View Post
                    I'd think that would be something to contact the JC about. You're paying enough to get her registered (and they've already got your money) - they can certainly take a couple minutes and run the tattoo.
                    LOL yes you would think that..its been an ongoing battle for almost 6 months. They originally told me that there was no paperwork for my filly at all, and that they had no DNA on the sire, Then I found out through COTH that there was a live foal report and DNA on the sire the whole time..its just been frustrating, I guess I just don't 100% trust them so I'd like to see if anyone else comes up with the mare. Its been back and forth and wuite confusing at times. I'll run it with them anyway just curious to see if anyone else comes up with the mare.
                    Love and Laughter - 2005 TB Mare - Boss Mare
                    Foxfire Lacey - 2007 Half Welsh Superstar
                    New Sensation - 1986- 2014 Love you to the moon and back

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      So there are no Jockey Club papers for the dam? There should be a detailed description on them.
                      Equine Web Design http://www.tbconnect.net | Kingsgate Stud home of Legal Jousting (IRE)

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by K~2 View Post
                        So there are no Jockey Club papers for the dam? There should be a detailed description on them.
                        There are papers on the mare somewhere, I don't know if the breeder still has them or not, but it is difficult to get hold of her although shes been a huge help. She no longer owns the mare. The woman I bought the filly from has the mare, but she does not have papers..
                        Love and Laughter - 2005 TB Mare - Boss Mare
                        Foxfire Lacey - 2007 Half Welsh Superstar
                        New Sensation - 1986- 2014 Love you to the moon and back

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Contact the TRBP, www.trpb.com. They were extremely helpful with a problem I was having regarding a horse/trainer issue. I'm sure they would be more than willing to work with you. They are a lot less of a hassle than the JC, which is funny, because they have a lot more authority.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            SO JC and CTHS are insisting that the mare has a Star but the tattoo number is very very close, but won't tell me which digit is off.. I am so so frustrated.
                            They're telling me I should find who has her papers..good luck! She raced years ago and has changed owners since. What I find strange - how can you sell a horse with papers and the markings don't match. even worse is the owner/breeder of the mare at the time filed the live foal report for HER stallion.
                            One more twist, I'm being told by CTHS that the breeder of my filly is *not* who bred her..funny. I still contact her occasionally with photos of Livvie, she was the one who sent me foal pictures of my girl.. I need a drink...
                            I don't know I'm just so frustrated with it all.

                            I'll try the TRPB...
                            Love and Laughter - 2005 TB Mare - Boss Mare
                            Foxfire Lacey - 2007 Half Welsh Superstar
                            New Sensation - 1986- 2014 Love you to the moon and back

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Do you have a photo of the Tattoo? I had the hardest time trying to read my guys, till I took a picture and had a good look on my monitor. I must have asked the JC to check 20 possible letter/number combinations! It didnt help we had no idea how old the guy was!

                              Woody04

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by LivviesMom View Post
                                What I find strange - how can you sell a horse with papers and the markings don't match. even worse is the owner/breeder of the mare at the time filed the live foal report for HER stallion.
                                One more twist, I'm being told by CTHS that the breeder of my filly is *not* who bred her..funny. I still contact her occasionally with photos of Livvie, she was the one who sent me foal pictures of my girl.. I need a drink...
                                I don't know I'm just so frustrated with it all.
                                Well people sell horses that sort of resemble the one named on "their" papers all the time. They do it to cheat. Problem is when the horse resells, that seller is not trying to cheat but you still have the wrong horse. Sort of passes the problem along.

                                Far as the breeder...did that lady actually own the mare when the foal dropped? Usually that is the breeder for record keeping purposes. Sometimes there are ownership issues that result in somebody who does not have physical possesion of the mare at the time of foaling still being the owner of record on the papers and therefore the breeder of record.

                                This is why breeders need to keep the paperwork current if they plan on ever selling anything they breed...and it happens in all of the breeds.

                                There are also "breeders" who stay on the shady side and, despite the fact they seem very nice and friendly, they are just plain old cheats and they lie at the drop of a checkbook. They can't register their stuff because they aren't what they say they are.
                                When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by findeight View Post
                                  Well people sell horses that sort of resemble the one named on "their" papers all the time. They do it to cheat. Problem is when the horse resells, that seller is not trying to cheat but you still have the wrong horse. Sort of passes the problem along.

                                  Far as the breeder...did that lady actually own the mare when the foal dropped? Usually that is the breeder for record keeping purposes. Sometimes there are ownership issues that result in somebody who does not have physical possesion of the mare at the time of foaling still being the owner of record on the papers and therefore the breeder of record.

                                  This is why breeders need to keep the paperwork current if they plan on ever selling anything they breed...and it happens in all of the breeds.

                                  There are also "breeders" who stay on the shady side and, despite the fact they seem very nice and friendly, they are just plain old cheats and they lie at the drop of a checkbook. They can't register their stuff because they aren't what they say they are.
                                  Yes the woman who bred my filly was the owner of the mare at the time of foaling, she was the one who filed the Live Foal Report, but apparently not the breeder as per the JC.. She also owned the Stallion.It just gets more confusing..

                                  I called TRPB and they were extremely helpful and understanding. They are sending me paperwork and we are taking photos of the Tattoo. So we should get this resolved in a few weeks hopefully.
                                  Love and Laughter - 2005 TB Mare - Boss Mare
                                  Foxfire Lacey - 2007 Half Welsh Superstar
                                  New Sensation - 1986- 2014 Love you to the moon and back

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by LivviesMom View Post
                                    Yes the woman who bred my filly was the owner of the mare at the time of foaling, she was the one who filed the Live Foal Report, but apparently not the breeder as per the JC.. She also owned the Stallion.It just gets more confusing..

                                    I called TRPB and they were extremely helpful and understanding. They are sending me paperwork and we are taking photos of the Tattoo. So we should get this resolved in a few weeks hopefully.
                                    So who do they have as the breeder? Unless the actual breeder put down someone else as the owner of the mare then why would they have another person? Did you pay for the tattoo look up? I've never heard of someone getting such a run around when they pay for the look up, usually they try every combination to match the horse. Can you get pictures of the mare from when she raced and see if she has a star or just white hairs?
                                    Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

                                    Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Per the JC website they have this information for the filly:


                                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                      Below are the results from your search.

                                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                                      Search Results
                                      Non-registered Thoroughbred, Registration is Pending
                                      Name: Love and Laughter
                                      Dam: As Is Liz
                                      Foaling Year: 2005
                                      Sex: Filly
                                      Breeder: Kari Levett
                                      DNA Sample: Posted





                                      Recent Registration Activity
                                      Form Type Status
                                      Application Pending --DNA kit in process for Dam (Hair Kit)
                                      Live Foal/No Foal Complete
                                      Service Certificate Complete

                                      But for the mare they have:


                                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                      Below are the results from your search.

                                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                                      Search Results
                                      Registered Thoroughbred
                                      Name: As Is Liz
                                      Dam: Lentella
                                      Foaling Year: 1987
                                      Sex: Mare
                                      Breeder: Mrs. E. From
                                      DNA Sample: Posted





                                      Something just isnt adding up, as long as the dam is DNA'd there should be no problem getting the foal registered unless the DNA of the dam and foal dont match for some reason.

                                      Good luck and please keep us posted.

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by summerhorse View Post
                                        So who do they have as the breeder? Unless the actual breeder put down someone else as the owner of the mare then why would they have another person? Did you pay for the tattoo look up? I've never heard of someone getting such a run around when they pay for the look up, usually they try every combination to match the horse. Can you get pictures of the mare from when she raced and see if she has a star or just white hairs?
                                        The owner of the mare was also the Breeder. No question about it. I guess technically I *did* pay for a look up, JC has accepted my $775 registration fee weeks ago.You would think they would be more willing to help.. They are adamant that the star is solid...
                                        Love and Laughter - 2005 TB Mare - Boss Mare
                                        Foxfire Lacey - 2007 Half Welsh Superstar
                                        New Sensation - 1986- 2014 Love you to the moon and back

                                        Comment

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