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  • Breeding

    Ok, I have been offered a breeding for my mare, which in this current economy, is quite appealing to me.
    My mare is a maiden 4 y/o (she raced several times, but raced twice on an injury and therefore didn't do well AT ALL). Her name is Itapuan, she's on Del Mar. The stallion is Full Quiver. He doesn't have much of a race record, and doesn't have any one racing either. The other stallion that I may be able to breed to is Allawinir, who has won more and has racing stock on the track.
    So my question is, do you think its a bad idea to give it a try?

    Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.
    Attached Files
    Race training and retraining Thoroughbreds.
  • Original Poster

    #2
    Ok, I have been offered a breeding for my mare, which in this current economy, is quite appealing to me.
    My mare is a maiden 4 y/o (she raced several times, but raced twice on an injury and therefore didn't do well AT ALL). Her name is Itapuan, she's on Del Mar. The stallion is Full Quiver. He doesn't have much of a race record, and doesn't have any one racing either. The other stallion that I may be able to breed to is Allawinir, who has won more and has racing stock on the track.
    So my question is, do you think its a bad idea to give it a try?

    Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.
    Race training and retraining Thoroughbreds.

    Comment


    • #3
      My first question would be what do you intend to do with the foal? If you are breeding hoping to sell it as a racing prospect, I would say, based on the parents' records, it would probably cost you more to raise the foal than you will be able to sell it for.

      If you're hoping to breed something to race yourself, again I would try to start with better stock. Racing is an incredibly expensive undertaking, and you would probably want to tilt the odds of success more in your favor. If you're looking for a hunter/jumper/eventing prospect, that's a whole other issue. I'll let someone else tackle that answer.
      www.laurienberenson.com

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Nope, its for racing purposes.
        My own purposes. Up here in MA, the quality isn't really good anyways, but the way I'm looking at it, if the baby isn't going to do anything on the track, it will do the hunter/jumper or eventing. Full Quiver has all of his babies in the show ring, so apparently that won't be a problem.
        The Dosage and everything seem pretty good with this cross.
        A lot of unraced (or unplaced) broodmares do very well in their babies. My mare has very good breeding, and I saw mares' babies at the FasigTipton sale that were less well bred than mine.
        I know its expensive, but I'm wondering if it might be worth it to give it a shot? I mean, what the heck IMO. I was going to breed the mare to a warmblood, but was offered this breeding, so I'd LOVE to save money and see what she throws the first time. If worse comes to worse, I'm thinking it will be a show prospect baby. We have a yearling right now that doesn't have the best race breeding, but is NY bred and we're going to start him for the track, if he doesn't prove himself, he's going to follow in his half sister's footsteps (who also started on the track first) and be a h/j (she is doing VERY WELL in the H/J).

        Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.
        Race training and retraining Thoroughbreds.

        Comment


        • #5
          Sorry, but no.

          You shouldn't breed.

          All these people who care about horses so much prefer to breed their own horses (sorry but those stallions don't sound like much), when they can be going to sales and getting babies that will be just as good as a not-so-well bred foal. Difference is, when you go to a sale, you are saving the life of a horse that may end up going to slaughter. Why breed?

          Don't tell me, "For the thrill of having bred your own horse". That's no excuse.

          I realize it's free, but please understand, you aren't contributing much. If you are willing to spend the money to put your horse through training, spend a little extra and go get a baby at a sale. I hate seeing those poor horses go to bad places.

          *J*
          Formerly "The Fjord Jockey"
          **Founder of the Jock Stalk Clique**...and so far, no one has joined...
          -The Girl With Endoscope Eyes

          Comment


          • #6
            Forgive me if this is blunt....

            Your mare started five times and was unplaced, earning $0. Her dam has three foals to race; none of them are winners although her 3yo has placed. Under your mare's second dam are fairly recent runners by Deputy Minister and Storm Bird, both very highly regarded stallions. Each of these horses won one race in their careers, with earnings of $5000 and $7000 respectively. That's not enough to support themselves. From what I can tell there is no black type in this family at all but I am not looking at a catalog page. Value of a young Thoroughbred is not determined so much on just the names in the pedigree as it is by the quality of the sire's record and the black type in the female family.

            Full Quiver has two starters, both foals of 1997. One raced 6 times; the other 16 and neither ever hit the board. He might be a great sporthorse stallion but for a racehorse I'd look elsewhere.

            Allawinir had 2 wins himself and has 2 winners from 4 starters. All 4 starters raced at very cheap levels.

            Now the blunt part. If you breed this mare to either of these stallions, you will probably end up with an unsuccessful racehorse (which to me is one who doesn't earn enough to pay his bills). What if your own circumstances change and you can't retire the horse as a hunter/jumper? You've only created another mediocre racehorse that will need a home, just like the ones you rescue and rehab. If you're interested in racing, why not claim a horse that's already racing, have fun with it, and then when it's ready to retire, see if it wants to be a hunter or a jumper.

            "Breed the best to the best and hope for the best."

            *****************************
            Custom Needlepoint Belts

            Comment


            • #7
              Bravo, Anne.

              *J*
              Formerly "The Fjord Jockey"
              **Founder of the Jock Stalk Clique**...and so far, no one has joined...
              -The Girl With Endoscope Eyes

              Comment


              • #8
                Well, I also don't think that you should take a free breeding to a TB. I also don't think that you should breed the mare for racing purposes because of lack of race record and no production on dams side.
                But, I do think that she looks like a lovely mare from the photo and if she moves well, is sound, athletic and has a good tempermant then consider breeding her to a WB for sporthorses.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The photo is the stallion Full Quiver.

                  *****************************
                  Custom Needlepoint Belts

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I don't see anything wrong with anyones responses.

                    You asked for opinions. Maybe it wasn't what you wanted to hear, or worded the way you wanted but I thought you got some serious, obviously researched, honest answers.

                    I don't think anyone meant for you to take it so personally. You asked about breeding this mare to this stallion as a racehorse and were advised against it with good reasons.
                    ~*Adult Pony Rider Clique*~
                    www.timberrunponies.com

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Like I said, I forgot what kind of response I would get.

                      Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.
                      Race training and retraining Thoroughbreds.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by doublete:
                        but from everyone that has seen her PHOTO, they say she won't even have a nice sporthorse. They all say breed her for race.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        What MORON said that and why on EARTH would you think that makes sense??

                        Racing is the toughest aspect of equine sport you can put your horse in. If a horse isn't good enough to be a sport-horse, what on EARTH makes whoever said "Breed for race" think that it can endure the physical stress of racing?

                        Sorry, but you ARE adding to the population. Bluntly, it doesn't matter how "nice and sweet" your mare is. She's physically no good for breeding. Just because you want to give her something to do doesn't mean you should breed her.

                        [QUOTE] If the baby is nicer than expected, at least my mare will have a job and I'll breed her the year after that. [QUOTE]

                        So you're expecting an ugly baby and that makes this better? Okay, you obviously can't take anyone's opinion but your own thick-headed one, so yes, please, spare us the pain of knowing you are adding something, rather than saving the life of another baby by going to a sale. Do us a favor and don't ask opinions unless you want to hear what people are going to say.

                        Why don't you go read this topic for some other people's ideas.

                        *J*
                        Formerly "The Fjord Jockey"
                        **Founder of the Jock Stalk Clique**...and so far, no one has joined...
                        -The Girl With Endoscope Eyes

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well it would seem that the only responses that you were interested in getting were ones that told you what you wanted to hear, and this isn't going to be one of those, so you may not want to bother reading any further. But I'll give common sense a try anyway.

                          If you don't have the money to pay for a decent stallion, then how are you going to pay to train the resulting foal? Training is expensive, and there is a lot of it to be done before the baby runs even it's first race. Many people make this same mistake. They breed cheap horses, thinking that many unsuccessful mares have good runners. That is actually true, but the odds are against it, and if you can afford to pay the training yourself, feel free to give it a try. But if you can't afford to pay the bills when they come due, don't breed the mare.

                          Maybe you figured on getting a trainer to train the horse for a percentage? I am a trainer and a bloodstock agent, and I probably get 100 requests every season from people asking me to do this for them. But the problem is, the horse in question is usually only worth about $1000 in a good market. So why should I train the horse for at least 6 months, in exchange for what amounts to $500? It may turn out to be a runner, but let's face it, I could have bought the whole horse for less than a month's training bill, and owned it outright if I wanted to run that kind of risk. It isn't worth my time to make that kind of a gamble, and unless you have money to throw away, it shouldn't be worth yours, either. Some trainers may take the horse on a deal, but only the ones who can't afford to buy the horse in the first place, and if they can't afford to buy it, then they can't afford to train it properly.
                          Maybe you'll train it yourself? Bad idea. While I have no doubt that you are an excellent show horse trainer, race training is very different. Which is not to say that you couldn't learn, but learning is usually very hard on your first several racehorses. As with anything, learning involves making lots of mistakes, and racing is very unforgiving of mistakes. Janet DelCastillo has made a huge success out of telling people that they can train their own horses without any experience, but the fact is, I've never met a really successful backyard trainer. Janet herself started many hundreds of times last year, and only won two , and something like 2 seconds and a third. By all means, do it for fun, but not if you expect to win races. And before you get all upset about my insultimng backyard racehorse trainers, I'm not. Doing anything well requires years of work and learning specific to that area. I've been training racehorses for 20 years, and I do pretty well, but I'd be pretty lame trying to train a hunter to successfully bring home ribbons without a lot of trial and error. It's just a totally different type of training. I have no doubt that I could learn, but it wouldn't be overnight, by any means.
                          So after all of my preaching, I guess what I'm trying to say is I wouldn't breed the mare if she were mine. If you want to breed her, and can afford to pay the bills, then go for it. You might wind up with a nice horse, and you might not, it's your choice. Just be aware that you will likely be shelling out a lot of money for absolutely no return.


                          ~ Stephanie

                          If ignorance is bliss, why aren't a lot more people happy?
                          ~ Stephanie

                          If ignorance is bliss, why aren\'t a lot more people happy?

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            PLEASE STOP ANSWERING MY QUESTION... Apparently, as was so eloquently put, I dont want to hear what you have to say.
                            If it had been said in a nice way, I really want to hear everyone's opinions. I do not want to be trashed for breeding my mare.
                            I do NOT expect a horrible baby. I expect her to have a baby as nice as she is. I am not a MORON, I can look at my horse and see her conformation. She is built like a hunter, which is why people say breed her to another TB or a hunter sire. I don't want a hunter horse. She has great conformation- vets have said so, so I'm NOT going to take anyone's word for it on a BB where they can't see me or the horse behind it.
                            In my mind, what I was asking for, was a simple- well here are the good points, here are the bad points. Make your decision from there.
                            It is NOT your position to 'preach' at me, not even if you think you should. There is no way you should be able to sit there and tell me what I HAVE TO DO OR SHOULD DO WITH MY OWN HORSE. I pay the bills, end of story.
                            Sky Beauty- Actually, i appreciate part of your post.
                            What I'm trying to do with my mare, is legitimize breeding her the first time. As with any horse, it is a crapshoot. And if you want to make the argument that you shouldn't breed a horse that doesn't have a race record, then go for it, but I have proof positive in my own barn. My mare's cousin, out of a mare that never raced and by Heff (have you ever heard of him???) won big allowance races, and by the time he was 3 he had already won $45,000. I think that's pretty decent. He'd only raced a total of 9 times.

                            Soo.. What I am trying to say is: I can afford to breed to a big stallion.. However, I can't see spending $50,000 on a stud fee when I don't know if this mare can produce. She's maiden. As far as I know, it is perfectly logical to want her to prove herself before you stick a lot of money into her. We have a trainer. There is no issue there. I am not new to this.
                            I was not asking to be trashed or flamed on this one. Thanks anyways though. In the real world (which I live in), when someone asks your advice on something, you sit with them and you give the pros and cons. You don't jump down their throat and say "well how could you EVEN THINK SUCH A THING??".. Because, in the real world you see that person and you see what they do and you see their horses. Perhaps, you shoudl keep that in mind next time you give advice. Try living in the real world.

                            Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.

                            [This message was edited by doublete on Feb. 18, 2003 at 01:19 PM.]
                            Race training and retraining Thoroughbreds.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              [QUOTE]Originally posted by doublete:
                              . Try living in the real world. [\QUOTE]

                              Huh?

                              *J*
                              Formerly "The Fjord Jockey"
                              **Founder of the Jock Stalk Clique**...and so far, no one has joined...
                              -The Girl With Endoscope Eyes

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                You get what you pay for. Actually, sometimes you get less than what you pay for. You very very very rarely get more.

                                If you want a race horse, you have a better chance to succeed by going to the sale and buying a horse that you can see it's physical characteristics. What if your baby has the WORST characteristics of the mare and stallion? What will you do with it? It could be ugly and not athletic.

                                Many of the top stallions breed over 100 mares a year. Yet they really only get a handful of offspring that become better than average race horses. And they are bred to the top mares.

                                Don't create an unknown factor. Take the money you would spend raising the foal and buy yourself a youngster that you really like. You sound like you could give a horse a good home.
                                Man plans. God laughs.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by doublete:
                                  What I'm trying to do with my mare, is legitimize breeding her the first time. As with any horse, it is a crapshoot. And if you want to make the argument that you shouldn't breed a horse that doesn't have a race record, then go for it, but I have proof positive in my own barn. My mare's cousin, out of a mare that never raced and by Heff (have you ever heard of him???) won big allowance races, and by the time he was 3 he had already won $45,000. I think that's pretty decent. He'd only raced a total of 9 times.
                                  ................As far as I know, it is perfectly logical to want her to prove herself before you stick a lot of money into her. We have a trainer. There is no issue there. I am not new to this.
                                  <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  I have no problems with your wanting to breed your mare, as long as you know the odds, and are willing to shell out the cash. You might get lucky. Personally, I'd spend a little money and get a better mare, if I wanted to breed. But if you really like that particular mare, and want to give her a chance to prove herself, then doesn't it make sense to breed to a better stallion, and at least give her a reasonable shot at producing a decent runner? It is going to cost the same to get the foal to the races, so at least maximise your chances of getting a good runner. I'm not talking about a $50,000 stud fee, either, just a decent horse. Frankly you couldn't breed your mare to a $50,000 stallion, because they would never write her a contract. But there are lots of decent stallions out there you whom you could get an inexpensive breeding.

                                  As far as Heff goes, I have not only heard of him, I had him for a while in training, and I'm pretty familiar with most of his foals. I don't remember one who made $45,000 in only 9 starts, though. What was the horse's name? Irregardless, while $45,000 is a nice chunk of change, you also have to deduct the costs of getting the colt to the races. I'm talking from birth, including the year that the mare carried the foal, vet bills and all. They certainly didn't make all that much profit.

                                  I even said in my earlier post that mares who look to be sub-par sometimes produce good runners. But not nearly as often as good mares do. That is just a fact. If you are willing to take the risk to prove your mare, then go for it. But if you really want to prove the mare, then do it the right way, not just because you get a free breeding. Do a little research, and find the best possible stallion for what you are willing to spend. Heck, you wouldn't breed your dog, just because the neighbor had a male that could do the job for you, so why breed your mare that way?
                                  You say that you aren't new to this, and you have a trainer. But you certainly sound new, or you'd already know most of this yourself. What does your trainer say about the breeding? If he's honest, he'll say exectly what I have.


                                  ~ Stephanie

                                  If ignorance is bliss, why aren't a lot more people happy?
                                  ~ Stephanie

                                  If ignorance is bliss, why aren\'t a lot more people happy?

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Skybeauty-
                                    Yeah that makes perfect sense. And essentially the answer I was looking for. I spoke to someone today on the phone who explained how to analyze the breeding (as in look at the crosses and how the crosses do on the track, etc).
                                    The only reason why I brought this up is because I had actually decided to go ahead and sink some money into breeding to a very well proven warmblood sire.Fuerst Gotthard. Dont anyone argue with that choice, it was very hard to come to. And then I get this offer of a TB, which made me think "well what if this is a better idea?".. So now I'm wondering if I should breed her to a TB.
                                    And IMO, good stallion owners will offer free breedings if they are compassionate or caring, doesn't matter if their stallion is the best thing since sliced bread.
                                    Heff's son is The Case is Closed. He raced at Calder. Was shipped up here cuz he was giving people problems with the gate, proceeded to say he will not go in the gate up here and was ruled off the track. OOpps..
                                    But anyways, the only reason why I brought this up is because I had already decided on a warmblood, and then this came up- you know the saying "sometimes things are meant to be"? I wasn't sure if it was a good idea or not.. So now I'm going to go through and analyze the breeding.
                                    When I said I'm not new to this, I'm young, I'll admit it. I'm 19. I work very hard, and rehab horses off the track. I've run a boarding facility since I was 12 (my parents did the financial end, I was always the horse person). I've bred my QH mare several times. Still have one of the babies. But, I do know most of what I'm doing. However, since I am young, I am not closed minded. I believe there is always something else I can learn.
                                    Which is why I ask questions and try to get everyone's opinions.
                                    Now, I'm going to take my friend's advice and ask some questions of the stallion owner, research the cross, check into a few other stallions that I might like to breed to, and if all else fails, go back to my earlier decision to breed to Fuerst Gotthard.

                                    Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.
                                    Race training and retraining Thoroughbreds.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by doublete:

                                      And IMO, good stallion owners will offer free breedings if they are compassionate or caring, doesn't matter if their stallion is the best thing since sliced bread.
                                      WHY? Most stallion owners are a business not a charity. They need to make money and breed to good mares to produce nice offspring to promote the stallion, not give out free breedings to any mare

                                      When I said I'm not new to this, I'm young, I'll admit it. I'm 19. I work very hard, and rehab horses off the track.
                                      So you don't know what you are doing when it comes to "breeding" and "race" training horses. I'am glad you want to learn. Try not to take everyone trying to help you personally (most of us are just trying to help).

                                      Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                      Bold type by showpony
                                      ~*Adult Pony Rider Clique*~
                                      www.timberrunponies.com

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Showpony..
                                        It doesn't necessarily matter about most of that stuff. It wasn't my original post. But I will answer.
                                        I never said that stallion owners are a charity, what I would like to say is that for some people, it is not the money that matters. Just because a stallion fee is being given away or at a discount or less than you'd expect, does that mean that the horse is a lower quality? In some cases YES absolutely, but in others, nope, not a darn bit. If a stallion owner feels taht someone has a mare that may complement his stallion and perhaps needs some numbers that year, or needs a new market to be established, say in the Hunter market, or whatever, they may help out the mare owner to make it possible or *more* enticing for the mare owner. That's all.
                                        When it comes to race training I don't have a darn clue! I have however been following a lot of the breeding of TB's for the past year, and before that QH's. So I do know the 'normal' good/bad how to decide whether you should breed a mare type thing. But the whole, matching bloodlines to complement each other. THAT was what I needed to find out about. I think I've done fairly well for myself in the past 12 years, I just want to keep learning as much as I can.

                                        I do take things personally, which I forget is stupid because this is done through the computer and no matter what, nothing is as good as face to face contact.

                                        Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.
                                        Race training and retraining Thoroughbreds.

                                        Comment

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