• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Big Weights "a thing of the past" - article

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Big Weights "a thing of the past" - article

    Did anyone read the interesting article in the Daily Racing Form (link here) from Oct 22nd titled "Big weights a thing of the past" in regards to handicap weight assignments?

    I thought it was great in showing that what was once revered as a badge of honor - toting high weights to victory - in recent years is a joke with assignments.

    Per the article no horse has carried 130 pounds (or higher) in a major route race on American soil since Skip Away's Iselin victory August 30, 1998 at Monmouth Park.

    A great quip:

    Allen Jerkens recalled a remark John Hay Whitney of the old Greentree Stable once made about weights.

    "Mr. Whitney said, 'Do you realize they put 136 on Tom Fool for the Brooklyn Handicap?'" Jerkens said, referring to the 1953 Brooklyn. "He said, 'Isn't it wonderful that they think so much of my horse?' There's not many people around now that can afford to be that sporting."
    Among the reasons cited for no longer giving high weights? Few handicaped races as it is, owners who are outright adverse to them and will just skip for other options, little geographic limitations (a flight out of NY to FL is easy) with options, and a migration to the weight-for-age conditions.

    Offered in the article are those examples of war horses who pulled weight like a sled and on to victory. Furthermore are great links to those horses past performances. Some samples of which when you look closer at them you just have to be astonished with what these guys did.

    Past Performances: Roseben

    Past Performances: Exterminator

    Past Performances: Kelso

    Past Performances: John Henry
  • Original Poster

    #2
    What the men of old did (and sadly is lost on newer fans who rave about a horse with a career of just 14 races) by todays standards would make any one of them "the greatest". I still think Exterminator was myself of the horses from that golden era but thats just my view

    Roseben: 111 starts 52-25-12 he retired in 1909 having earned $74,910 (unadjusted for inflation).

    Look at his race 12 Nov 1906 @ Aqueduct in the Bayview Handicap. He toted 146-lbs in a 7-furlong race and the runner up toted 119-lbs.

    He took 2nd on July 25, 1907 in a 6-furlong race while hauling 150-lbs to the winner with just a mere 92-lbs!! And he lost by only 1 1/2 length!

    Exterminator not only hauled weight but went distance and was used rapidly with so little down time. If a trainer did this today they'd likely get ruled off the track!

    Example for his rapid runs:
    5 June 1922: Belmont @ 1 1/8 mi; won toting 133-lbs to the 2nd place runner with 107
    13 Jun 1922: Belmont @ 1 1/16 mi; won toting 135-lbs to the 2nd place runner with 128
    16 Jun 1922: Aqueduct @ 1 1/8 mi in the Brooklyn Handicap (today a Grade 2) he won toting 135-lbs to the 2nd place runner Grey Lag (1921's Horse of the Year) with 126-lbs

    Just amazing ...

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Glimmerglass View Post
      What the men of old did (and sadly is lost on newer fans who rave about a horse with a career of just 14 races) by todays standards would make any one of them "the greatest". I still think Exterminator was myself of the horses from that golden era but thats just my view

      Roseben: 111 starts 52-25-12 he retired in 1909 having earned $74,910 (unadjusted for inflation).



      Exterminator not only hauled weight but went distance and was used rapidly with so little down time. If a trainer did this today they'd likely get ruled off the track!

      Example for his rapid runs:
      5 June 1922: Belmont @ 1 1/8 mi; won toting 133-lbs to the 2nd place runner with 107
      13 Jun 1922: Belmont @ 1 1/16 mi; won toting 135-lbs to the 2nd place runner with 128
      16 Jun 1922: Aqueduct @ 1 1/8 mi in the Brooklyn Handicap (today a Grade 2) he won toting 135-lbs to the 2nd place runner Grey Lag (1921's Horse of the Year) with 126-lbs

      Just amazing ...

      Can you imagine what the Internet forumites would be saying if about either of these examples if they happened today? They'd be clamoring that Roseben needed to be saved b/c he "deserves his retirement already!" And, you're right - Exterminator's trainer would be reamed for his "cruelty." Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

      Comment


      • #4
        I just wonder if it's because today's horses can't hold up to it? Or maybe it's because people expect speed records to continually be broken and that gets more difficult if the horses are carrying a lot of weight?

        (Not bashing, just curious.)
        The Trials and Jubilations of a Twenty-Something Re-rider
        Happy owner of Kieran the mostly-white-very-large-not-pony.

        Comment


        • #5
          My 2 yo filly Soul Sista carried 133pds last year in a handicap in England. She finished 3rd to horses carrying 21pds and 19pds less. I thought, bloody hell, colts in the KY Derby don't carry that! And by the way, she was a small but well built filly.

          At any rate, horses on this side of the pond will routinely carry more weight than the American counterparts. Don't have an opinion on whether it's right or wrong. Filly was fine although I would rather her jumped up a class level so she had a lower weight taking on horses rated better than her but whom would have carried more weight.

          Terri
          COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

          "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

          Comment


          • #6
            I had just assumed consistently lower weight was a sign of the general parity in TB racing... Why are handicaps so out of favor? Without knowing much about how you put together a race, it seems like handicaps would give trainers an opportunity to just get horses out where they have a chance -- instead of sitting around waiting for exactly the right conditions and then finding that the race doesn't go or the horse can't get in.
            Am I way off?
            "I never panic when I get lost. I just change where I want to go."
            -Rita Rudner

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by actcasual View Post
              Why are handicaps so out of favor?
              As cited in the article:

              With few exceptions, weight, long the ultimate equalizer in racing, has largely disappeared from competition. Handicaps have been diluted for such reasons as the proliferation of races and bigger purses, premature retirement of top horses, and higher jockey weights.

              At the elite level, handicaps appear less frequently, and, more important, the weight spread - how much the top horse must concede - has narrowed significantly. In other words, handicaps are not what their name suggests.
              Three telling quotes:

              "I think handicaps are outdated to a point," said P.J. Campo, the racing secretary of the New York Racing Association. "No one wants to carry weight anymore, and if you put too much weight on a guy, they'll just get in a van or get on a plane and go someplace else."

              Said Lou Raffetto, the former president of the Maryland Jockey Club and general manager of Suffolk Downs, "The business aspect, unfortunately, outweighs the sporting aspect."

              "Nobody puts true weight on a horse, anyway," said trainer Graham Motion, who said he believes handicaps should be done away with. "The bottom line is there are so many options these days that you can just avoid them."
              By the way Roseben wasn't nicknamed "The Big Train" for nothing

              John Henry who raced to the end of 1984 carried at least 126-lbs in all but three of his last 39 races in his career. Like Exterminator the old man carried the weight and didn't give a damn about it.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by actcasual View Post
                I had just assumed consistently lower weight was a sign of the general parity in TB racing... Why are handicaps so out of favor? Without knowing much about how you put together a race, it seems like handicaps would give trainers an opportunity to just get horses out where they have a chance -- instead of sitting around waiting for exactly the right conditions and then finding that the race doesn't go or the horse can't get in.
                Am I way off?
                The article is really about Handicaps at the elite level of racing. They have fallen out of favour because nobody with a "big" horse wants to see it get mugged by a G3 horse to who they are conceding 20lbs or more.
                They do still have handicaps, the Donn, Foster etc, but as to whether they are true handicaps anymore is open for debate, as the weight spread doesn't usually reflect the gap in ability.

                As Terri pointed out, Handicaps are the meat and potatoes of racing in many parts of the world, and do allow one to run a horse with a chance of winning, because theoretically all horses' chances are equalised by weight. In places like England you will see horses most days of week running for $10k or $15k purses, toting close to 140lbs and sometimes conceding close to 30lbs to other horses in the race.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Drvmb1ggl3 View Post

                  As Terri pointed out, Handicaps are the meat and potatoes of racing in many parts of the world, and do allow one to run a horse with a chance of winning, because theoretically all horses' chances are equalised by weight. In places like England you will see horses most days of week running for $10k or $15k purses, toting close to 140lbs and sometimes conceding close to 30lbs to other horses in the race.
                  This is more what I was thinking of: Mid to high priced claimers and low-end stakes type horses? Couldn't a couple of handicaps cover a broad range of horses, give all of them a theoretical chance, and make track management happy by appealing to bettors with a large, more diverse field?
                  I certainly didn't expect that trainers of today's elite horses -- the ones that are already so lightly raced and carefully placed, I guess with an eye to the breeding shed -- would want to run in ... dubious company.
                  "I never panic when I get lost. I just change where I want to go."
                  -Rita Rudner

                  Comment

                  Working...
                  X