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Racing 101

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  • Racing 101

    How would you interpret the following?

    DP=5-1-2-0-0 (8) DI=7.00 CD=1.38 GSV=46.09

    I'd appreciate any feedback. Thanks

  • #2
    I can get close enough to make both of us dangerous.

    These numbers represent the horse's Dosage Profile. Whoever it was who invented Dosage came up with 5 categories of quality horses -- based on the distance of racing they excelled at (their stamina v. speed).

    He then decided which horses were worthy of being given a designation (such as "Chef de Race") and which designation(s) the horse got. When you look at a horse's pedigree, if a horse's sire has dosage points, he is given full credit in the appropriate category because he is in the first generation. A grandsire gets 1/2 his dosage points credited in the category appropriate to him and so on.

    In this exapmple of the DP (Dosage Profile) the horse has ancestors which cumulatively total 5 sprinting points (the farthest left column), 1 medium short distance point and 2 middle distance points.

    This means that there is virtually NO distance blood in his pedigree. The only "distance" blood is 1/2 of the 2 points of the middle number, which is always split 50/50 into the sprint and distance categories.

    The (8) following these numbers is just a total of the 5+1+2.

    The next set of numbers is the Dosage Index. This number gives you an idea of the balance of speed v. distance in a horse's pedigree. To get the index, the numbers in the 2 left columns plus 1/2 of the number in the center column are divided by the numbers in the 2 right hand columns plus half the numbers in the center column.

    In this case, that gives you 5+1+1 divided by 1 = 7

    The higher the number, the more of a sprinter pedigree a horse has. The lower the number, the more stamina the horse has in his pedigree. The only time most people ever hear about dosage is during the Ky Derby: It is a commonly held belief that a horse with a dosage greater than 4 cannot win the Derby.

    The CD is the center of distribution. It tells you how closely the numbers are grouped toward the center v. at the outer columns.

    GSV I have heard of but do not understand... Sorry.
    "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

    Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump


    • #3

      Great job!!!

      Now try "dual qualifiers"!


      • #4
        What's a "Wonk"?!!!!!
        "Everyone will start to cheer, when you put on your sailin shoes"-Lowell George


        • #5
          Gosh! An explanation that even I can understand.

          I've asked Erin to put this thread in the archives when people are through posting on it. That way, we'll be able to point people to it when dosage questions arise again.

          Now, anyone want to take a shot at those histories that hobie cat is so nice to put up all the time?
          If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.
          Desmond Tutu


          • #6
            Louise, I usually refer folks back to this thread so I dont have to keep 'splaining how to interpret an APR all of the time..... will copy and paste so at least its on the same thread and easy to find.


            posted Aug. 03, 2004 08:36 PM
            I will use this one for an explanation:

            1997 French Reign,f,Miswaki 4 35 1 13 8 83,702 ( 83) 1.10
            North America Turf Record 5 0 1 2 7,860 ( 81)
            North America Dirt Sprints 12 0 7 1 30,095 ( 80)
            North America Dirt Routes 18 1 5 5 45,747 ( 83)
            North America Muddy/Sloppy 1 0 1 0 1,501 ( 73)
            DP = 11-5-13-1-0 DI = 3.00 CD = 0.87 AWD = 8.32
            Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
            KEESEP 1998 1452 $75,000 $112,796 ylg (16/27) $35,000

            French Reign, a 1997 mare by Miswaki, ran during 4 calendar years making 35 starts, with 1 win, 13 seconds, 8 thirds earning 83,702. Her highest speed rating was 83, and her SSI (Standard Starts Index) was 1.10. Then its broken down by category.. for example the next line is turf. She ran 5 times with 0 wins, 1 second and 2 thirds on turf earning 7,860. Her highest speed rating on turf was an 81 (close to her personal best of 83). Same thing for the next line on dirt sprints (Less than a mile) and the following line on dirt routes (mile or over). And finally they tell you how she ran on an "off" (muddy/sloppy) track (1 start, 1 second). IF she had run as a 2 yo they would have had that above the line for turf, but this mare didnt race as a 2 yo.

            Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
            KEESEP 1998 1452 $75,000 $112,796 ylg (16/27) $35,000

            She was sold at Keeneland Sept yearling sale in 98 as Hip # 1452 for $75k against her sires yearling average of 112,796 for that year. Out of 27 Miswaki yearlings sold that year she was the 16th most expensive. His stud fee when she was bred was 35k. I posted elsewhere explaining about the SSI, will find it and edit this message to add that info so I dont have to type it all over again... cuz I'm lazy! lol

            DP = 11-5-13-1-0 DI = 3.00 CD = 0.87 AWD = 8.32
            The above line is Dosage Points, Center of Distribution, and Average Winning Distance (in furlongs, so 8.32 f = 1 mile 70 yards I believe). Go here to learn more about Dosage Points.

            And here is the SSI info:
            About SSI: The SSI is a numerical representation of a runners race record in comparison with all other runners regardless of years raced, number of starts and sex. The higher the number, the better the runner. For comparison purposes a runner with an SSI of 32.19 is in the top 0.01% of all runners, and a runner with an SSI of 1.00 is in the top 21.3% of all runners. It is also important to nkow that 50% of all runners have an SSI of 0.36 or better, and 12.4% of all runners earned no money and have an SSI of 0.00.

            If any of this is unclear let me know!
            Jessi Pizzurro ~~ Pennyroyal Stables
            Racehorses, OTTBs ~~ 330 383 1281
            Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway. -- John Wayne


            • #7
              Thanks hobie cat! That will make a nice, easy to locate, informational topic.

              Can anyone else think of some often asked questions that can be answered here? Might as well get them on one thread, for easy access.

              Hey foundationmare - like the way I hijacked your thread? Sorry, I hope you got the information you were looking for.
              If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.
              Desmond Tutu


              • #8
                How about:

                Where can I learn more about Dosage.....

                http://brisnet.com/cgi-bin/static.cgi?page=advdosage (advanced theory)
                Where can I try to order a win pic/video of my horse?
                Figure out what track your horse has won at, then call and ask for track photographer. Having the date and race # when you talk to the photog helps a great deal. Most tracks and their #s are listed on the page below. Note, at most tracks photos and videos are purchased from differnt people. Videos are kept by the media or video room folks not the track photographer.


                2004 report of mares bred by stallion (alphabetical order) http://jockeyclub.com/information.asp?reportrequest=RMB
                Where can I order one of those APR disks?
                http://brisnet.com/cgi-bin/static.cgi?page=aprinfo (info)

                http://brisnet.com/aprorder.txt (pricing - specials going on now for the 2004 edition!)

                Where can I learn more about ordering race records?

                from the Jockey Club site online

                Online rule book

                1. What is the deadline to register a Thoroughbred foal?

                Thoroughbred foals may be registered at any time provided all requirements listed in the Principal Rules and Requirements of The American Stud Book are satisfied. To avoid late fees, The Jockey Club should receive all materials within 12 months of the date of foaling. Registration fees cover the cost of genetic typing, parentage verification and corrections made to the Certificate of Foal Registration within six (6) months from the date of issuance. Refer to the Fee Schedule for a full description of fees.

                2. Why don't I always receive my first name choice for my Thoroughbred?

                To avoid confusion on the racetrack and in the breeding industry, The Jockey Club has established Rules for naming Thoroughbreds. These rules help prevent duplication of names already in use or names of horses which enjoyed distinguished careers on the racetrack or breeding farm. All names submitted to The Jockey Club for approval are subjected to stringent review to assure names requested are not similar in spelling or pronunciation to those names already in use. Approximately 450,000 names are unavailable either because they are in current use or protected because of historical significance. However, approximately 75% of first name choices submitted are approved by The Jockey Club. The fastest way to name your Thoroughbred is through Interactive RegistrationTM, which features an Online Names Book which is updated continuously.

                3. How is the parentage of my Thoroughbred verified?

                In 2001, The Jockey Club switched from blood typing to DNA typing for parentage verification. Although blood typing was state-of-the-art for many years, DNA typing is 99.9% efficacious. This high rate provides the greatest assurance modern science has to offer for the integrity of The American Stud Book. The genetic testing laboratories under contract by The Jockey Club compare the genetic factors present in the sire and dam to those factors present in the foal. These comparisons indicate whether the sire and dam reported do indeed qualify as the sire and dam of the foal.

                4. How do I transfer ownership on my horse?

                If the horse is already registered, submit a completed Transfer of Ownership form signed by the new owner or agent listing the new ownership information, the horse's name, pedigree and date of purchase.

                Forms submitted via Interactive Registration do not require a signature.

                If the registration is still in progress and papers have not issued, simply supply the correct ownership information in the spaces provided on the various forms utilized by The Jockey Club. For example, the Live Foal Report and Application for Registration can be used to report the ownership of a horse for which the papers have not yet issued.

                The back of the Certificate of Foal Registration provides a number of blank spaces to record transfers of ownership when Thoroughbreds are bought and sold. The Jockey Club encourages all breeders and owners to faithfully record ownership transfers on the back of the Certificate of Foal Registration before the Thoroughbred changes hands.

                To assure that future correspondence concerning the Thoroughbred is mailed to the correct address, The Jockey Club encourages owners to report transfers of ownership to the registry by either logging onto Interactive Registration and selecting "Transfer Ownership" or by calling the registry office and requesting a Transfer of Ownership form.

                Although the term "ownership" is used, keep in mind The Jockey Club does not purport to maintain accurate and up-to-date records of ownership on Thoroughbreds. Rather, the transfer of ownership information is necessary to assure registry correspondence concerning the Thoroughbred reaches the appropriate parties responsible for transacting business with the registry.

                The Jockey Club will not release the ownership information regarding a particular horse unless requested by order of a racing or court authority.

                No fee is required to transfer ownership and DO NOT return the Certificate of Foal Registration.

                5. What does "Sold Without Pedigree" mean?

                A Thoroughbred may be sold without the Certificate of Foal Registration. This type of sale arises when an owner wishes to sell a Thoroughbred but for either health or other reasons, does not want the horse to compete in racing or to breed. Thoroughbreds that are sold without pedigree remain listed in the American Stud Book; however, their offspring are not eligible for registration. Please refer to Rule 18 of the Principal Rules and Requirements of the American Stud Book for more information.

                6. How can I replace my horse's papers that were lost?

                Complete a duplicate certificate form and submit the following to The Jockey Club:

                Four (4) color photographs clearly indicating all identifying markings taken from the front, rear and both sides. If no identifying markings are present, please submit a fifth (5th) photograph of a close-up of the face indicating all cowlicks present

                Bill of sale from owner or other form of proof of ownership.

                Notarized statement from the owner or authorized agent describing in detail how the certificate of foal registration was lost or destroyed.

                Duplicate fee (see Fee Schedule).

                7. How can I get a pedigree and race record for my horse?Fee Schedule

                equineline.com, the online Thoroughbred information service of The Jockey Club Information Systems, Inc. (TJCIS), has available many options for pedigrees and race records for nominal fees. This site is completely secure and you may order reports using your credit card. Sample products may be reviewed by clicking the horse head that says "Sample Product, Free." You can also order a pedigree and race record by calling TJCIS at 800-333-1778 or 859-224-2800. All profits from TJCIS activities are re-invested in the Thoroughbred industry.

                8. How can I find out about my horse when all I have is a tattoo number?

                TJCIS offers two types of tattoo research. To find out more, call 800-333-1778 or 859-224-2800 or go to http://www.tjcis.com/ and click on the "tattoos researched" button.

                Need additional information on registering your Thoroughbred? Please contact The Jockey Club Registration Services Department at (859) 224-2700.

                enough yet?

                Jessi Pizzurro ~~ Pennyroyal Stables
                Racehorses, OTTBs ~~ 330 383 1281
                Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway. -- John Wayne


                • #9
                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by libgrrl:

                  Great job!!!

                  Now try "dual qualifiers"! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  Hey... Dual Qualifiers is easy. I've already done the hard work.

                  Come Ky Derby time, there is a group of people who have statistics which say that there are two main criteria for a horse to meet before it has a chance to be considered a good bet to win the Kentucky Derby.

                  The first criteria is that the horse must have sufficient stamina in his pedigree to get the 1 1/4 miles that is the distance of the Kentucky Derby. The Dosage Index (explained above) is an easy way, some say, of determining this. An index of 4 is the "dividing line" between horses with enough distance runners in their pedigree and horses who have too much sprinting blood to last the 1 1/4 miles at this point in their lives.

                  There are a number of holes in this theory -- the biggest one (which you can drive a truck through, IMO) is that the categories which the horse's ancestors are assigned to (the 5 categories of sprinter v. run all day horse) are subjectively determined by one man. If things are not working out as they should be with his little formula, he has been known to add a horse into an additional category so that the points can be reassigned to work out the way he wants them to.

                  So, in the dual qualifying theory -- the first way to qualify is to have a Dosage Index of less than 4.

                  The second element necessary to become a dual qualifier is to be assigned a "weight" within 10 pounds of the highweighted 2 year old on the Experimental Free Hanidcap.

                  For a two year old to be assigned a weight on the Experimental Free Handicap, he must have placed in a stakes race during the year.

                  Traditionally, the best 2 year old is assigned 126 pounds on this scale. An exceptional 2 year old will be assigned more to recognize his superiority over all two year olds of that year and other years. Secretariat was assigned 128 or 129 which, as I recall, might have been the all time high weight assignment.

                  These horses will never be assigned these weights in an actual race; it is merely a method of ranking their relative ability based on their performances as 2 year olds.

                  Of course, many horses which go on to be top 3 year olds are just getting started at the end of their 2 year old year. But the people who ascribe to the "Dual Qualifier" theory believe that a horse cannot win the Kentucky Derby without having shown enough precociousness as a 2 year old to have performed well at the stakes level.

                  Each year there are approximately 8 - 12 horses who have both a DI under 4 AND who are assigned weights within 10 pounds of the highweighted 2 year old.

                  NB: Two year old fillies are given a 3 pound weight allowance. So a filly who is assigned 123 pounds is considered to be on a par with a colt who is assigned 126. I believe that this year Sweet Catomine was assigned 124 pounds (= to a 127 lbs weight for a colt -- she is considered to be an extraordinary filly). This means that, only colts who were assigned above 117 and fillies who were assigned above 114 AND whose DI is less than 4 are Dual Qualifiers.

                  Clear as mud?
                  "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

                  Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump


                  • #10
                    GSV Genetic Strength Value

                    One breeding/handicapping system guru has developed this system for evaluating potential, which he sells.

                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>GSV: "A Must for Handicappers, Stallion Managers and Breeders"

                    GSV=Genetic Strength Value:
                    It predicts thoroughbred performance before the foal is born. The GSV is based on the Genetic, Racing Ability and Stud Performance (GRASP) of 57 of the 62 horses in its 5 generation pedigree. The missing 5 horses are its tail-female line. A catalog page gives buyers and sellers the tail-female line. The GSV measures the rest.
                    A GSV scores over 70 is worth a bet if there are no other horses in the race with a score above 68 as there is a good return on horses at high odds. It is also a great bet if solid handicapping shows that the horse is "live" in the race. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"A Must for Commercial Breeders and Buyers and Those Who Breed to Race"
                    G =Genetic: Measures performances of males & females within five generations, pedigree construction, tail-female line strength, etc.
                    A =Racing Ability: Measures individual racing brilliance, level, earnings, blacktype events, speed vs stamina, preferences, etc.
                    P =Stud Performance: Measures success as a sire and broodmare sire, % of starters, %winners, %SW's, % 2yo winners, etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    Pedigree Query has a deal with the guy who does this and lists the Genetic Strength Value of the horses that it has in its database.
                    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                    Thread killer Extraordinaire


                    • #11
                      Jessi Pizzurro ~~ Pennyroyal Stables
                      Racehorses, OTTBs ~~ 330 383 1281
                      Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway. -- John Wayne


                      • #12
                        Can I just say....wow.

                        Now I know most of this stuff, but even I am impressed with how easy to understand, clear and best of all, in one place!!!!

                        Too bad my 'big' horse has horrible dosage!!!

                        "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries


                        • #13
                          bumping back up so I dont have to go digging....

                          Jessi Pizzurro ~~ Pennyroyal Stables
                          Racehorses, OTTBs ~~ 330 383 1281
                          Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway. -- John Wayne


                          • #14
                            Even better, I'll pin it.
                            If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.
                            Desmond Tutu


                            • #15
                              Thanks Louise! ...Even tho no one will answer my question, I'm printing this wealth of knowledge.
                              "Everyone will start to cheer, when you put on your sailin shoes"-Lowell George


                              • #16
                                Toadie's mom, I'll answer your question!

                                A 'wonk' is someone that is studious or exceptionally knowledgable about a particular subject. It's sometimes used in a disparaging way, sort of like calling someone a computer geek or nerd. A lot of times you'll hear the term used in political circles, when someone is referred to as a 'policy wonk.' That means they have an unusual or obsessive amount of knowledge about policy.
                                "I'm a quitter. I come from a long line of quitters. It's amazing I'm here at all.


                                • #17
                                  lee. Thanks! I guess at the very least we're all "horse wonks", or at least think we are!
                                  "Everyone will start to cheer, when you put on your sailin shoes"-Lowell George


                                  • #18
                                    Here's another tidbit of info:

                                    TB Tattoos consist of a letter followed by 5 numbers, i.e. S02072.

                                    The letter corresponds to the birth year. In the example above, the birth year is 1989. The numbers are the rest of the registration. So the registration number printed on this horse's papers would be 8902072.

                                    A 1971
                                    B 1972
                                    C 1973
                                    D 1974
                                    E 1975
                                    F 1976
                                    G 1977
                                    H 1978
                                    I 1979
                                    J 1980
                                    K 1981
                                    L 1982
                                    M 1983
                                    N 1984
                                    O 1985
                                    P 1986
                                    Q 1987
                                    R 1988
                                    S 1989
                                    T 1990
                                    U 1991
                                    V 1992
                                    W 1993
                                    X 1994
                                    Y 1995
                                    Z 1996
                                    A 1997
                                    B 1998
                                    C 1999
                                    D 2000
                                    E 2001
                                    F 2002
                                    G 2003
                                    H 2004
                                    I 2005
                                    J 2006
                                    K 2007
                                    L 2008
                                    M 2009
                                    N 2010
                                    O 2011
                                    P 2012
                                    Q 2013
                                    R 2014
                                    S 2015
                                    T 2016
                                    U 2017
                                    V 2018
                                    W 2019
                                    X 2020
                                    Y 2021
                                    Z 2022
                                    Last edited by Sing Mia Song; Jun. 2, 2009, 08:30 AM.
                                    Life would be infinitely better if pinatas suddenly appeared throughout the day.


                                    • Original Poster

                                      Thank you so much for the information! I haven't responded before now because I just returned from ten days in the Bahamas! I know, I know, it's a tough gig but I figure I saved some other poor bloke from having to go in my place!

                                      The original question was spawned when I decided to finally admit that I had no clue what they meant. I had done a pedigree query on my now three year old colt, newly registered with the JC, my very first "all mine" horse that I bred. He's a fine looking young man and has sprinter stamped all over him!

                                      Thank you again.


                                      • #20
                                        Hope it's ok to post a racing 101 question...
                                        Stepahnie Valberg has found that "horses tied-up most often with gallop training not when breezing or racing." So what is the difference?